The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[KariTheFox]

Except for the part where NPC dialogue clearly indicates the Warrior of Light to be extremely well-learned at this stage of the story. They are shown to possess an impressive knowledge of subjects ranging from world history all the way over to aetherology.

Eh? The knowledge the WoL canonically possesses could be gleaned from an afternoon of browsing Eorzean Wikipedia. Most dialogue choices you get are one off facts or things the WoL personally experienced - with the other NPCs around you possesing much more in-depth knowledge of a given subject. The WoL might be knowledgeable and informed for an adventurer with no formal education - but a world historian they are not.

[Veloran]

you can safely conclude that the line of argument that Veloran is currently using about how Venat was responsible for safeguarding humanity from every adverse event in the history of the universe is rubbish.

She is responsible for the outcomes of the context that was intentionally created by her, yes.

Yes, deposing him is a great idea, and surely didn’t set in motion a calamity.

I notice this is like the third time you've just ignored my comment regarding the fact that they easily could have acted beforehand. And in fact yes, with the Ascian's cooperation he could have been deposed in a heartbeat.

The fact is that calamities are not easily seen coming,

calamities were incredibly difficult to see coming. By design.

They're accompanied by massive shifts in the natural world. Persistent lightning storms, entire regions being rendered desert wastelands, constant earthquakes, deep winters, endless rainfall, and all the effects picked up before the Seventh Umbral Calamity. These are very obvious and widespread things, even for the oncoming 8UC aether was thinning everywhere and magic was failing, in just the earliest stages.

Then why did she summon the star shower and reach out to WoL before it occurred?

As I said before, we have no evidence it was even her. And if it was, it could be the very reason I previously proposed and ultimately the one that occurred - Simply mitigating the damage and saving lives as the Calamity set off.

The only way it ends up in a history book is if one is writing about our journey on the First, and even then only because a time traveler came to tell us this stuff is important.

Black Rose was used to destroy entire armies to put down rebellions within the Empire. Saying "oh, nobody would know about it" is like saying nobody would know about the chemical weapons used in WW1 or the nukes used at the end of WW2.

Minfilia only lost her body on the trip to the First,

Did you not even bother to watch the cutscene I previously linked you?

No it very clearly backfired. The Flood was only stopped by Minfilia. If not for her the First would have been lost like the 13th.

Please actually read my responses to you before posting.

They didn't actually want a Flood, that was a mistake yes, but all of the WoDs getting crystals to (little f) flood the world with Light was precisely what they wanted, and they couldn't have achieved their ends had Venat not played into this.

So she’s not only able to manipulate thousands to do exactly what she wants them to, but she’s an expert on aeronautics using aether based propulsion systems. Hell why even bother having the Sharlayans build the Ragnarök, or having the Loporrits erase arch and develop space travel, she knew it all from the start!

The Sharlayans and the Loporrits were both effectively her agents, why would she not know how much energy the ship would need? They designed the damn thing, like I said they should know exactly how much power it would need. And again she resides in the aetherial sea, IE a nigh-endless reservoir of aether, she could have just used some to communicate instead of body-jacking Minfilia and letting the First get ruined for no reason.

Remember, Mitron and Loghrif were the ones holding back the Light on the First, why would they bother doing that if when they are manipulating events to push things further towards the Light?

Are you really asking why the Ascians would not want a shard to be aspected to the Light prior to developing a plan to use that Light to rejoin it? Obviously a shard being disposed to Light would not generally be good for them before they decide to make use of that, this has nothing to do with the fact of Venat handing out Crystals of Light like candy to the point the shard and the Source became dangerously over-aspected was clearly either done by intent or a truly terrible idea.

I think you’re being unfair in your description of events.

I think that description is completely accurate.

[Naoki34]

tl;dr:
Venat condemned her own race to extinction based on lots of supposition and the word of some dude from the future.

WoL benefits from the Blessing of Light, a spell that only she (Venat) could cast while having part of Azem's soul colour.

Spoil about Azem, WoL & Hythlodaeus:

Azem's soul was split into 14 with The Source and its 13 reflections, WoL was the reincarnation of Azem's soul fragment from The Source. Ardbert is the reincarnation of Azem's soul fragment from the First Reflection.

Hythlodaeus always says: "My not so new friend" with his gift that Emet-Selch also has, he saw in the soul of the WoL a tiny part of Azem's soul, he says this sentence because he knows somewhere that it is his friend from the old world.

So it's not just anyone to her. It's a person with his mark that can only come from the future, since she doesn't remember casting it on WoL. So it's likely for her that somewhere it was herself from the future who sent it. So it's not just a random guy.


Unless you skip some dialogue, she didn't believe blindly, but she investigated with the WoL until she got the proof with Meteion's revelations at the end of the Elpis dungeon, driven by her curiosity like anyone who has been Azem.

[KariTheFox]

And again she resides in the aetherial sea, IE a nigh-endless reservoir of aether, she could have just used some to communicate instead of body-jacking Minfilia and letting the First get ruined for no reason.

If the aether that is sinking down to the lifestream through the aetherial sea is so easy for her to tap into and use, why didn't she just use the limitless aether supply she apparently had access to easily communicate with us. Why bother trying to use Krile and Minfilia as intermediaries, why tell us it is a great struggle to communicate at all? Is she lying? (why, what does she gain by telling this lie?) Is she just hilariously incompotent?

[Veloran]

If the aether that is sinking down to the lifestream through the aetherial sea is so easy for her to tap into and use, why didn't she just use the limitless aether supply she apparently had access to easily communicate with us.

Because the plot couldn't happen otherwise. From late ARR forwards she was supposed to be incredibly weak to the point of being unable to even speak on her own, but in Endwalker they reveal (retcon) that this is not the case. Now, the only explanation is that she was lying about it, because she clearly has tremendous amounts of energy at her disposal. Previously people had argued that she had grown so weak because she was unwilling to draw on any ambient aether like the other Primals, but we see with both the Mothercrystal and her own very powerful Primal form that this was clearly not the case.

As to why? While it's tempting to just peg that on incompetence (moreso on the writers' part for not being consistent), a more easily-rationalized motive would be that perhaps she did so because she thought it would be the best, for some reason. She didn't talk to anyone because she wanted them to find their own way without her guidance. This is probably the best explanation from a character perspective, but there's probably too much contradicting it due to how she did give instructions to numerous parties at various points for it to hold up to scrutiny. Another explanation would be that she was trying to reach the timeline WoL in Elpis arrived from, but people will argue about that back and forth forever.

But again it's most easily pinned on bad writing.

[KariTheFox]

I fail to see how it necessarily follows that because she presented a challenge to the WoL in the form of a fight, she must have been able to communicate easily from deep in her place in the aetherial sea. The ability to throw light waves around does not translate into the ability to communicate easily with anyone.

If she wanted people to find thier own paths, that is all very well and good. But then why communicate at all with anyone? Why did the Sharlayans have to probe deep into the aetherial sea to communicate with her - why not communicate with them directly, since it was so easy? Why did she spend a not insignificant part of Endwalker trying to use Krile as an intermediary just to speak briefly with the WoL?

Either Venat is an incompetent liar who contradicts herself almost every time she speaks. Or she and the narrative is telling the truth - it was incredibly difficult for her to communicate.

[Absimiliard]

I will note that the aetherial sea is where you go when you die. Obviously Venat wasn't dead (unless we consider becoming a primal a form of death, but that's a philosophical debate for another thread), but one has to think it would require an obscene amount of energy to reach out from within the afterlife itself to communicate with the living. By her own admission her aether reserves had been dwindling for quite some time, making this feat even more difficult than it already was -- then eventually impossible. Could she have communicated again? Most likely, but doing so would have required that she dip into the reserves of aether she was keeping back to be able to fight the WoL at full power. She would have been unable to administer an adequate test if she had chosen to burn through that energy to communicate further.

Eh? The knowledge the WoL canonically possesses could be gleaned from an afternoon of browsing Eorzean Wikipedia. Most dialogue choices you get are one off facts or things the WoL personally experienced - with the other NPCs around you possesing much more in-depth knowledge of a given subject. The WoL might be knowledgeable and informed for an adventurer with no formal education - but a world historian they are not.

I'm afraid I disagree. More than a few NPCs in the game comment on the WoL possessing greater knowledge than many people whose whole lives were devoted to <insert field here>. Simply put, the WoL is just straight up one of those "I can do anything better than you" characters, and it has been for a pretty long time now. Pertains to matters of the mind as well, although we learn in the Eden raid that they apparently have a hilariously bad memory when it comes to their own exploits.

[EaraGrace]

I notice this is like the third time you've just ignored my comment regarding the fact that they easily could have acted beforehand. And in fact yes, with the Ascian's cooperation he could have been deposed in a heartbeat.

When? During the rise when the Allagan lacked both the technology and power of their height? Not to mention much of the reason for its quick rise was due to Xande himself and the innovations. It’s stated verbatim, that without his handpicked mages the Allagan Empire would never have survived. And he’ll, we saw the result once he was gone. The system he built was dependent on him, and if you believe you can retain the Allagan Empire while getting rid of him, we’ll let’s just a particularly evil mage would have some words to say.

They're accompanied by massive shifts in the natural world. Persistent lightning storms, entire regions being rendered desert wastelands, constant earthquakes, deep winters, endless rainfall, and all the effects picked up before the Seventh Umbral Calamity. These are very obvious and widespread things, even for the oncoming 8UC aether was thinning everywhere and magic was failing, in just the earliest stages.

None of this disproves my point. The catalyst for the calamity remains incredibly difficult to foresee, which is my point. Despite knowing the flood of water was coming, they failed to stop it. Despite a plethora of Earth aether, neither the rebels nor Xandes forces foresaw what would happen. And knowing the light is plentiful, did not warn the world of the 8UC.

As I said before, we have no evidence it was even her. And if it was, it could be the very reason I previously proposed and ultimately the one that occurred - Simply mitigating the damage and saving lives as the Calamity set off.

You don’t believe am ethereal female voice singing Answers to us, followed by a star shower, was her? That it was someone else?

https://youtu.be/ksuoipNWKWs

Black Rose was used to destroy entire armies to put down rebellions within the Empire. Saying "oh, nobody would know about it" is like saying nobody would know about the chemical weapons used in WW1 or the nukes used at the end of WW2.

It was so widely known that none of the Eorzean Alliance saw it’s use in the Ala Mhigan front coming?

Did you not even bother to watch the cutscene I previously linked you?

I’m actually struggling with this one. What about this scene suggests her physical form is gone at this point? She disappears yes, but that’s not indicative of her physical presence.

Please actually read my responses to you before posting.

Spare me the condescension.

The Sharlayans and the Loporrits were both effectively her agents, why would she not know how much energy the ship would need? They designed the damn thing, like I said they should know exactly how much power it would need. And again she resides in the aetherial sea, IE a nigh-endless reservoir of aether, she could have just used some to communicate instead of body-jacking Minfilia and letting the First get ruined for no reason.

How would she know the specifics? She’s relying on unknown and undeveloped technologies here, working only off of what she knew, that without dynamis you’d need to use aether. And you realize that all the Aether she could gather was going to the Mothercrystal right?

Are you really asking why the Ascians would not want a shard to be aspected to the Light prior to developing a plan to use that Light to rejoin it? Obviously a shard being disposed to Light would not generally be good for them before they decide to make use of that, this has nothing to do with the fact of Venat handing out Crystals of Light like candy to the point the shard and the Source became dangerously over-aspected was clearly either done by intent or a truly terrible idea.

They… planned for the First to be aspected to light from the moment the thirteenth fell. That’s the whole point of their plan to “save” them both. What they don’t need is a planet consumed by light, an important distinction. Thus Mitron and Loghrif were sent to hold it back and manipulate events, so that way they cause the rejoining when the source was primed. My point is that things truly fell apart with Mitron demise, and subsequent transformation, and thus they needed Minfilias intervention. It backfired, the pawns they used turned out to be queens. And handing out crystals like candy? You don’t even know how Ardbert and company got them do you?

I think that description is completely accurate.

Cool.

[Cilia]

Just saying -

The First's predilection toward Light is suggested to have been a consequence of the Thirteenth's collapse into the Void.

Hydaelyn giving Crystals of Light to her chosen on the First isn't implied to have affected this at all.

The Flood of Light was not planned for; that was an unforeseen consequence of Ardbert not playing his part to perfection by sparing Cylva and turning his wrath upon her Ascian masters. It was, however, taken advantage of by Emet-Selch.

[Absimiliard]

Just saying -Hydaelyn giving Crystals of Light to her chosen on the First isn't implied to have affected this at all.

In-game text explicitly states that Hydaelyn was in part to blame for the Flood as well, albeit unintentionally.