The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Veloran]

The failure to stop the other Rejoinings, and presumably other disasters. She knows that if she fails to stop those Rejoinings, the Seventh Astral Era gets closest, but if she manged to stop, say, the Sixth Umbral Calamity, maybe Amdapor was on track to a breakthrough.

The Seventh Astral has a big thing of 'standing on the shoulders of giants', a lot of the leading minds and civilizations are building on departed people; mostly Allag, but others contribute too. But if those giants just didn't die, they'd be perfectly well-suited. Immediately I can look at Allag and say they definitely had everything needed to pull off Plan 'Punch Meteion In The Snout', and I wouldn't scoff at someone saying that Mhach had a chance either.

What I'm saying is that Hydaelyn definitely tried to stop those Calamities, failed, and was reassured by 'well, at least the Seventh Astral Era has good odds'. That's not saying that others wouldn't have had a chance if she'd protected them--and also not saying that later Eras would've been totally lost--but is saying that we are her reassurance. If we die, she doesn't even have a prayer.

I'm not sure what plan or breakthrough or odds you're referring to. That is to say, if history up to this point wasn't according to plan - That the seven calamities were failures on her part - then I don't really see what a success state for her is supposed to be. Beating Meteion? As you say there may have been other opportunities throughout history to do it, but she never revealed the conflict to anybody else for them to make the attempt. We then might say that a success state for her was simply Etheirys existing in perpetuity while being protected by Zodiark. But... I don't really see how that's any more of a solution than the selfsame one the hologram meeting in Akademia said wasn't permanent enough.

Part of the reason why it's hard to know if the Rejoinings were actually failures is that she did need them to happen in order to reach this conclusion that is ideal for her. It's hard to argue that Venat was freewheeling it and trying to go for an alternative series of events when everything turned out exactly as WoL described to her and she was actively abetting at least some of it.

[EaraGrace]

Part of the reason why it's hard to know if the Rejoinings were actually failures is that she did need them to happen in order to reach this conclusion that is ideal for her. It's hard to argue that Venat was freewheeling it and trying to go for an alternative series of events when everything turned out exactly as WoL described to her and she was actively abetting at least some of it.

A timeline where she didn’t have to devote the vast majority of her power to maintain the bonds on Zodiark, where civilizations didn’t have to reset every few millennia due to a calamity, and wouldn’t need her strength to resist the Ascians seems much more conducive to her goals.

And I would say it’s very easy to argue it, given we know she was acting to stop calamities. Her support of Tenzen and Ramza, the aid she offered to the various WoL throughout history all point to that end. And then there’s her statements on the matter, which I posted earlier, all make clear her thoughts on how she approached the Rejoinings.

[Absimiliard]

Venat had a necessary part to play in ensuring what she believed was the best possible outcome could come to pass, which did in fact require all those calamities and rejoinings. Whether she gave her all in attempting to stop them or not is moot; she knew going in what had to happen, and she had already resolved to do everything necessary to force her vision of the future (or rather the future told to her by the WoL) into coming to pass well before she sundered the world. She also knew ahead of time that she was going to see a lot more failures than successes.

What we have in Endwalker is called a stable time loop. The beginning and end points become largely irrelevant due to the fact that neither can occur without the other. Venat's decisions were always informed by knowledge of the future.

[EaraGrace]

Venat had a necessary part to play in ensuring what she believed was the best possible outcome, which did in fact require all those calamities and rejoinings. Whether she gave her all in attempting to stop them or not is moot; she knew going in what had to happen, and she had already resolved to do everything necessary to force that particular outcome. She also knew ahead of time that she was going to see a lot more failures than successes.

I’m gonna take this moment to quite the Eorzea Encyclopedia, because I think it makes it clear that she was working to prevent calamities, matching up with true quotes I’ve posted that no one has really refuted.



So we have two examples, not including the efforts of the WoL during 1.0, of Hydaelyn lending her strength to those trying to stop the Calamities. If she was so dedicated to things happening as we described them, why try to stop two necessary events?

[Absimiliard]

I will note that several retcons have occurred that have invalidated some parts of the Encyclopedia Eorzea. The Echo, for example, no longer works at all how it was previously described. It is not connected to Hydaelyn at this time. The blessing is something wholly separate and far more limited in distribution.

This being said, heroes are necessary. Any or all of those calamities could easily have been far worse had they not actively been opposed. This does not change the fact that she knew what had to happen. Also, I'd note that at no point did I imply she willingly let the calamities occur, which appears to be what you are reacting to. Venat does not seem to have the necessary strength of will to sit idly by while innumerable people die just so the world can get the outcome it needs.

[Veloran]

A timeline where she didn’t have to devote the vast majority of her power to maintain the bonds on Zodiark, where civilizations didn’t have to reset every few millennia due to a calamity, and wouldn’t need her strength to resist the Ascians seems much more conducive to her goals.

Sure. So why didn't she just tell them what the threat was? Even the Ascians would want to see the Meteion ended, and during Allag for example would have had more than enough resources to have a go at her.

Her support of Tenzen and Ramza,

They were both dealing with little-c calamities. That is to say the issues of the Auspices and Ultima appear quite unrelated to the Ascians and the Rejoinings, they were just local issues. And yes she has created WoLs around the time of various Calamities, but by the very nature of our knowledge of them they seem to have a 100% failure rate. If anything their presence had only served to mark Echo-users as portents of doom.

Not to mention her most well-known creation of WoLs by far, on the First, was actually directly causing the Calamity there. And since we now know she's not just a mindless robot dispensing crystals like a slot machine, we can only presume that she knew what was going on and was actively abetting it. Presumably because she knew it had to happen to reach WoL's future, and thus meet her own ends.

[EaraGrace]

I will note that several retcons have occurred that have invalidated some parts of the Encyclopedia Eorzea. The Echo, for example, no longer works at all how it was previously described. It is not connected to Hydaelyn at this time.

Right, but none of the retcons have changed anything about the role she had. We know Hydaelyn and Ramza were connected from the Ivalice raids, we have a firsthand account for that. We have Her efforts to prevent the Seventh Umbral Calamity. We have the records messaged in the Encyclopedia of visions and blessing that we’re not the Echo being bestowed on heroes at the time. And we have Venat/Hydaelyns statements on the future, on the Rejoining and the Calamities. All points in a singular direction, that she tried to halt the Calamities.

Sure. So why didn't she just tell them what the threat was? Even the Ascians would want to see the Meteion ended, and during Allag for example would have had more than enough resources to have a go at her.

Ancient Allag at its height was run by Xande and Amon, a suicidal ruler who wished to see the world end and his devoted researcher. Not to mention, the Ascians were running the empire behind the scenes, if Emets statements are anything to go by.

They were both dealing with little-c calamities. That is to say the issues of the Auspices and Ultima appear quite unrelated to the Ascians and the Rejoinings, they were just local issues. And yes she has created WoLs around the time of various Calamities, but by the very nature of our knowledge of them they seem to have a 100% failure rate. If anything their presence had only served to mark Echo-users as portents of doom.

Little c calamities and big C ones are impossible for us to distinguish. That assertion and the 100% failure rate are great examples of circular reasoning. Any effort that stopped a calamity would not be remembered as such since it was stopped and the Ascians machinations would not manifest, while any effort that failed would be remembered due to the worldwide impact and thus would be clearly Ascian caused.

But even if I accepted that, the fact remains that trying to stop and failing still shows Her priorities. Why waste time and resources trying to halt an event you want to happen?

Not to mention her most well-known creation of WoLs by far, on the First, was actually directly causing the Calamity there. And since we now know she's not just a mindless robot dispensing crystals like a slot machine, we can only presume that she knew what was going on and was actively abetting it. Presumably because she knew it had to happen to reach WoL's future, and thus meet her own ends.

This is a strong presumption to make. Exactly how much Venat knew of Mitron and Loghrifs demise, info that could only come from us, and of the Warriors of Darkness is uncertain. We could’ve told her everything, and thus it would be logical to presume she knew when she bestowed the Crystals that they would ultimately cause the Flood. On the other hand, if we only spoke of Emet-Selch and Amaurot, and his death there, then there wouldn’t be reason to believe that was mentioned.

Supporting the former is the scene with Minfilia on the First, where she tells Ardbert to wait, suggesting she knew he would be needed, though that was Minfilias decision, not Venats. There’s also the fact that he was told to wait to give us hope, not to help us in battle, once again the vagueness makes it hard to read intent. Supporting the latter is the fact that if she did want them to have the crystals, waiting until after Cyella manipulated them wouldn’t be necessary, giving them when she did would be arbitrary and an unneeded requisite. There’s also the fact that the events of the Flood had little to do with our presence in Elpis, with only Emets involvement being confirmed to be mentioned.

Either way, going off Venats later statements, I think it’s safe to say the latter is more likely.

[Veloran]

We have Her efforts to prevent the Seventh Umbral Calamity.

Hydaelyn was basically a non-entity in 1.0, no? We kind of just assume that she was creating starshowers to awaken people's Echoes, but even as the Encyclopedia says this is just a correlation. Ironically the only person we know for sure can and has created starshowers for that purpose is Elidibus, which indeed fits his MO of inspiring faith in WoLs to empower himself and simultaneously "keep the balance".

[Absimiliard]

Right, but none of the retcons have changed anything about the role she had. We know Hydaelyn and Ramza were connected from the Ivalice raids, we have a firsthand account for that. We have Her efforts to prevent the Seventh Umbral Calamity. We have the records messaged in the Encyclopedia of visions and blessing that we’re not the Echo being bestowed on heroes at the time. And we have Venat/Hydaelyns statements on the future, on the Rejoining and the Calamities. All points in a singular direction, that she tried to halt the Calamities.

Once again, I am not disputing that she tried. I am observing that she had detailed foreknowledge of all that would transpire. She knew her champions would fail time and time again, yet she chose the same ones anyway. My general assumption is that the individuals she chose to empower in any given era were the most worthy, meaning failure would have been a possibility even had she taken advantage of her knowledge of future events and selected others.

[Jandor]

Little c calamities and big C ones are impossible for us to distinguish. That assertion and the 100% failure rate are great examples of circular reasoning. Any effort that stopped a calamity would not be remembered as such since it was stopped and the Ascians machinations would not manifest, while any effort that failed would be remembered due to the worldwide impact and thus would be clearly Ascian caused.

Fair point, we have no idea how many, if any, she managed to stop. It might be that the Ascians only tried 8 times total, and she failed completely, letting 7 rejoinings happen and 1 shard be ruined entirely.

It might be that the Ascians had a go roughly every 1000 years and she managed to prevent 4 rejoinings.

Maybe they were even more keen than that, having a crack at it every 500 years and therefore she stopped them 16 times.

I guess we'll likely never know, we weren't there and everyone we might have asked about it is a bit dead now.

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I suppose we could try and Azem magic Venat out of the lifestream to ask her, but I suspect that the incantation requires at least a smidge of dynamis, and that 'idle curiosity' isn't a strong enough emotion to trigger the effect.