Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[StriderShinryu]

Well she's right lol, most people who write him off as a bad character haven't dived into his lore and background as much as his fans have.

Eh, I'm not sure I would expect any less. I mean, Puddingway probably knows all the deepest, dankest pudding lore too given that, you know, they're an obsessed fan of pudding. I don't, however, need to be a Puddingway to know that I like chocolate pudding and don't really like vanilla pudding. I'd also never go to Puddingway expecting any sort of unbiased commentary on whether pudding is good or not, knowing that I would not only get told that pudding is great but that it's so great I should eat it for all three meals in a day.

[nighttimebunny]

Eh, I'm not sure I would expect any less. I mean, Puddingway probably knows all the deepest, dankest pudding lore too given that, you know, they're an obsessed fan of pudding. I don't, however, need to be a Puddingway to know that I like chocolate pudding and don't really like vanilla pudding. I'd also never go to Puddingway expecting any sort of unbiased commentary on whether pudding is good or not, knowing that I would not only get told that pudding is great but that it's so great I should eat it for all three meals in a day.

I mean yeah, his fans dive deep into his lore->get rewarded for it-> like him even more. I don't think there are many people who can give you an 100% unbiased opinion of him. I either see fans like myself or haters. Much more rare to see people who are neutral and also well versed in his story who don't have emotions clouding their view, positive or negative. most everything i've said in this thread i've tried to back up with facts though.

[Ramesses]

...I've recently finished Endwalker and while I am left with many unanswered/half-answered questions, one of the biggest questions/worries I have is related to Zenos. It's hard to find the words to describe everything I feel in regards to Zenos's story but I'll do my best. I'm writing this because I really really wish that you would bring back Zenos and give him a proper, in-depth redemption arc.

To the OP:

Who needs Zenos when I now have my new old best friendo-- the incredible Hythlodeus? He's charming, he's beautiful inside and out, he's mischievous yet kind to the core without being clingy.



Now-- don't get me wrong-- I've always been a MASSIVE fan of Zenos mainly for the reason that the game thoroughly needed a charcater like him as at when SB was launched. However, between the tail end of Stormblood and end of Shadowbringers, there were certain elements of the writing that made him come across to some of the playerbase as being "boring" or ineffectual towards the development of the WoL.

While I thoroughly disagree with several of the comments regarding his charcater, I can nevertheless understand many players' gripe with his continued placement within the MSQ tale-- and I like to speculate that this can be attributed to several elements, and below are just three:

• His childhood should have been thoroughly examined via the Echo which would have helped give players a more in-depth insight as to why he evolved as he did-- instead, we got mere snippets of his back story through the Chronicles of Light book-- which I reckon was a highly missed opportunity by the Devs for people to better understand his mind set.
  
• Secondly, had he killed Y'shtola during that early battle at the Reach in Stormblood, that would have firmly placed him on everyone's hated list-- however, the Devs were very correct in recognizing that she is a HUGE favourite (especially in Japan) and killing her off would have been very detrimental to the flow of the future two expansions.
  
• Thirdly-- and most importantly-- the scenes during the later patches of Shadowbringers should have shown him doing something worthwhile rather than yapping with Fandaniel. Back then, I even tried to justify his continued existence by speculating that he really had been very busy behind the scenes, causing a stir on the other shards and trying to become a vessel for Zodiark. The body snatch quest escapade at Garlemald even made me think this was a prelude to him body snatching Zodiark in the future-- instead (to my bafflement) we had him essentially use the WoL's body to just "scare" the scions-- I really thought this was where he was going to kill Alphy, which would have really fueled the necessary anger needed to hunt him down. But no-- we got a plot device which served to further underline his singular obsession towards the hero

One other thing to note regarding this "redemption" that some people like to postulate for him is that one has to remember-- by lore standards, Zenos himself doesn't even want redemption-- not only does his selfish destruction of his own capital reinforce this notion-- but he did some really serious heinous deeds while he was Viceroy of Ala Mhigo-- in case you forgot, here are a few screenshots to juggle the memory-- remember all the bodies we discovered in his basement?





Like I said-- I loved Zenos as a formidable charcater up to a point-- his gestures, his voice acting, his intellect, his fighting prowess, his disposition towards being unashamedly "evil"-- even his ending during EW was very fitting. One could even argue that his assistance during our battle with Meteion could be credited as an act of redemption for him. Yet, at the very worst, if he is still alive (which I reckon would ruin his ending) let him continue his existence in another dimension with a new obsession. Either that or leave him dead and let us all leave it that way-- he was done.

Bring on (Nerva?) and let's start exploring the development of the inevitable "Larsa" figure that will help rebuild Garlemald.

[nighttimebunny]

The thing is, he had a better ending in Stormblood imo. What was the point of bringing him back to die sad and regretful? He did not die with a smile like he did in Stormblood. Not to mention the few plotholes they've created and Yoshi P hinting about his job change/avatar at least twice. It's also a bit odd that the one NPC that represents reaper in the MSQ is "dead." i knew Alphi wouldn't die since he was the Sage representative.

Also Yoshi P said a week ago that Zenos is the only person who sees us as an adventurer, and we are now losing our title as hero and being an adventurer again. (Nitpick but he said "is" when he referred to other dead characters as "was" lol.)

[YianKutku]

It's extremely likely that he is. We've seen him die before but his soul wouldn't go to the Lifestream because he's an Ascian in all but name. He wanted to die but he couldn't. There's many ways he could cheat death again but it's already been stated many times in this thread.

But given your post that "leaving him alive solves nothing", that means our "final battle" at the edge of the universe also solved nothing, because Zenos is also still alive, when to solve anything he needed to die.

[nighttimebunny]

But given your post that "leaving him alive solves nothing", that means our "final battle" at the edge of the universe also solved nothing, because Zenos is also still alive, when to solve anything he needed to die.

well that just goes back into the main topic of the thread. I think his death was the death of Zenos as we knew him. He will no longer be an antagonist, because of the tone shift (when you compare the EW ending to his other death.)

If he was left “alive” and didn’t have his fight, he would still be an antagonist. I really use alive and dead very loosely with Zenos because we’ve established earlier on that he’s immortal

[CKNovel]

I'm in the group that loved Zenos in SB but despise his revival and role until EW.
His SB death felt complete, Ran'jit death also felt complete.

But now Zenos death in EW feels incomplete...
We still have many questions about his dreams and avatar that was supposed to be important.
His writing was good for the very low screentime he had. "If I had a reason, would it change anything?" was a very good point to the lack of motives in contrast to Emet-Selch.

I'd like for him to comeback but with a newfound resolve and goal. The hard part is that he remains a criminal and the root of suffering to many.
Sadly, I think he's gone for good. It really looks like he stopped breathing at the end of the cutscene and with no body to possess.

[KageTokage]

I also think he's actually dead because yes, while he may have an immortal soul like an Ascian, it doesn't mean it can't be snuffed out through means like say, recklessly channeling aether into imitations of primal magicks until it's so spent that it can't hold itself together anymore.

He wanted to "burn the candle of his life", after all.

[kaynide]

Re: Zenos

Really, my big gripe with him is that his story was essentially done in Stormblood.

The ideas they brought in Endwalker were very interesting/promising, but they just didn't do anything with it. The fact that he could "body jack" others could have been a HUGE deal and would have made for intense intrigue. (is that really Y'shtola? Or any of the nation leaders? Aweful sus!)

..but it turned out to be a whole lotta nothing.

If he never comes back, I'll be fine. I don't hate him, but he's not really adding anything to the story for me. I prefer him dead to be honest.

The only way he could work in a serious way would be to live in exile, on another shard or continent..and even then I'm not sure what to do with him. The only meaningful thing I think they do with him is have him decide the only way to get more powerful is to draw on allies like we do and ultimately change him for the better.

[nighttimebunny]

I'm in the group that loved Zenos in SB but despise his revival and role until EW.
His SB death felt complete, Ran'jit death also felt complete.

But now Zenos death in EW feels incomplete...
We still have many questions about his dreams and avatar that was supposed to be important.
His writing was good for the very low screentime he had. "If I had a reason, would it change anything?" was a very good point to the lack of motives in contrast to Emet-Selch.

I'd like for him to comeback but with a newfound resolve and goal. The hard part is that he remains a criminal and the root of suffering to many.
Sadly, I think he's gone for good. It really looks like he stopped breathing at the end of the cutscene and with no body to possess.

He could be in our body..We saw the aetherial sea for a moment, and he’s been in there before, I’m kind of worried he hitched a ride lol. Ascians are also able to repossess the same body so I don’t know. But the thing is, if the writers wanted to bring him back there are a few ways they could revive him. I just don’t know what their plans are. There are a few questions that remain that only he himself could answer though and the vagueness of the death as well as what the devs have said regarding him is weird.

It’s also weird how just moments before he died Meteion turned the place into one of hope and rebirth. When the scene cuts out and we teleport, the sunlight shifts from us and to him. There’s no way that the dynamis doesn’t react to him somehow

I don’t want to go into more since i’d just be repeating myself too much haha. But I do think we’re supposed to be left guessing.