Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[nighttimebunny]

Saying that the only reason people don't like Zenos is because they haven't read enough about him/delved into obscure lore and that asserting that Zenos will return as a "good guy" despite Zenos himself outright saying that isn't who he is and the fact that Zenos got a satisfying end to his arc but that the OP won't accept so.

Well she's right lol, most people who write him off as a bad character haven't dived into his lore and background as much as his fans have. Also, the player base is really split on this topic. There was a poll about it and about half of people said he was done and the other half said he wasn't. His controversy continues to fascinate me, as well as people who are furious whenever he's even brought up.

[Kesey]

Well she's right lol, most people who write him off as a bad character haven't dived into his lore and background as much as his fans have. Also, the player base is really split on this topic. There was a poll about it and about half of people said he was done and the other half said he wasn't. His controversy continues to fascinate me, as well as people who are furious whenever he's even brought up.

What about those of us who can't consume enough lore and still find Zenos wanting?

This guy didn't carry a significant part of the plot in Endwalker, which was built up in post-Stormblood and Shadowbringers for nothing.

And I personally felt the first moment of discord between the role play as WOL the moment in Ultima Thule when I had 3 choices that were all acknowledgments to wanting to fight him. I did not feel that. The ultimate lesson is for us to just walk away. No matter how much he wants to fight us, no matter how much he helped us in the final fight to get the chance to fight us, the ONLY way his character changes for the better is to walk away at the edge of existence and the game made us fight him. And they did not give us the choice.

Agency and personal growth were stolen on both the side of the player and the villain. And if you and other players are the fans you claim to be you wouldn't be defending these poor character choices and lack of development.

[nighttimebunny]

What about those of us who can't consume enough lore and still find Zenos wanting?

This guy didn't carry a significant part of the plot in Endwalker, which was built up in post-Stormblood and Shadowbringers for nothing.

And I personally felt the first moment of discord between the role play as WOL the moment in Ultima Thule when I had 3 choices that were all acknowledgments to wanting to fight him. I did not feel that. The ultimate lesson is for us to just walk away. No matter how much he wants to fight us, no matter how much he helped us in the final fight to get the chance to fight us, the ONLY way his character changes for the better is to walk away at the edge of existence and the game made us fight him. And they did not give us the choice.

Agency and personal growth were stolen on both the side of the player and the villain. And if you and other players are the fans you claim to be you wouldn't be defending these poor character choices and lack of development.

Okay say they gave you the option to either fight him or walk away. How exactly would that play out afterwards? You really want them to create 2 different endings because some players didn't want to kill their worst enemy for some reason?

He needed to die in order for them to continue the story. Leaving him there alive would solve nothing, he'd find a way back and be even angrier most likely. That place was filled with dynamis and who knows how it reacts to Zenos? Now that we gave him his fight, he had an ending where he realized all he's done was for nothing, the story can go on and a new arc can continue. I hope it involves him in some way, because of all the plotholes that need solving.

Anyways, the WoL is not perfect. At all. A perfect, can-do-no-wrong hero is boring. How is walking away from that personal growth? it would be hiding from your issues and letting them compound and come back much worse.

[YianKutku]

He needed to die in order for them to continue the story.

Isn't the premise of the OP that Zenos is still alive?

[nighttimebunny]

Isn't the premise of the OP that Zenos is still alive?

It's extremely likely that he is. We've seen him die before but his soul wouldn't go to the Lifestream because he's an Ascian in all but name. He wanted to die but he couldn't. There's many ways he could cheat death again but it's already been stated many times in this thread.

[Rosenstrauch]

Okay say they gave you the option to either fight him or walk away. How exactly would that play out afterwards? You really want them to create 2 different endings because some players didn't want to kill their worst enemy for some reason?

This isn't actually a problem. Quite a bit of the game has moments that account for whether or not you've made certain choices, and at least one piece of optional content—Eureka—has a big decision near the end that determines whether or not an NPC from that story is alive or dead. And while the Baldesion Arsenal bits of the story merge those two endings together (the character lives, but the benefits of their sacrifice remain in place), it's clear that the developers don't intend to force anyone to play that content. Because of that, Ejika Tsunjika (the aforementioned NPC) can never really be used in even optional stories going forward.

They could easily have given us the choice to walk away from Zenos and leave him for dead at the edge of the universe. And while, yes, he would technically still be alive, it would be in the same sense as Ejika Tsunjika. Only with the possible caveat of "if he returns, dead Zenos needs to be explained away".

Besides, this isn't some strict black and white dichotomy, where the WoL is either "a perfect goody two shoes who can do no wrong" or Son "threw a senzu bean to Cell" Goku. My WoL is a murderer, a recovering alcoholic, and an all around miserable person underneath the mask of "Warrior of Light"—and what love she does have of fighting comes from a desire for intimacy and rapport, not challenging herself. Yet I believe she would've walked away from Zenos, simply because she values her life and her future too much to throw it away for one "really good fight". Especially because it was Zenos—a man she holds no love for whatsoever.


And if that's a mistake? if Zenos turns out to not be a man of his word, and continues to be a threat in the future? That's just proof enough that the WoL is a flawed character.

[nighttimebunny]

This isn't actually a problem. Quite a bit of the game has moments that account for whether or not you've made certain choices, and at least one piece of optional content—Eureka—has a big decision near the end that determines whether or not an NPC from that story is alive or dead. And while the Baldesion Arsenal bits of the story merge those two endings together (the character lives, but the benefits of their sacrifice remain in place), it's clear that the developers don't intend to force anyone to play that content. Because of that, Ejika Tsunjika (the aforementioned NPC) can never really be used in even optional stories going forward.

They could easily have given us the choice to walk away from Zenos and leave him for dead at the edge of the universe. And while, yes, he would technically still be alive, it would be in the same sense as Ejika Tsunjika. Only with the possible caveat of "if he returns, dead Zenos needs to be explained away".

Besides, this isn't some strict black and white dichotomy, where the WoL is either "a perfect goody two shoes who can do no wrong" or Son "threw a senzu bean to Cell" Goku. My WoL is a murderer, a recovering alcoholic, and an all around miserable person underneath the mask of "Warrior of Light"—and what love she does have of fighting comes from a desire for intimacy and rapport, not challenging herself. Yet I believe she would've walked away from Zenos, simply because she values her life and her future too much to throw it away for one "really good fight". Especially because it was Zenos—a man she holds no love for whatsoever.


And if that's a mistake? if Zenos turns out to not be a man of his word, and continues to be a threat in the future? That's just proof enough that the WoL is a flawed character.

I just can't see them doing something like that for the MSQ. I don't think Zenos is permanently dead, but he needed to die in his current state for the story to move forward. Leaving him alive would potentially be disastrous and going back to the topic of the thread it was necessary for any development to occur. I do understand that the ending is frustrating for people though, if they didn't want to fight him. I just don't believe multiple paths would work in the long term. They gave 2 answer options for people who don't like him. If you don't like him, the dialogue before the fight has the tone of just another boss fight. You're basically putting him down. If you do like him, and choose option 1, it has a much friendlier tone. I think that's enough. (Anyway, the game forces me to adventure with Y'shtola even though I don't like her, I'm not crying about it. that's just an example)

[Ayuhra]

Well she's right lol, most people who write him off as a bad character haven't dived into his lore and background as much as his fans have. Also, the player base is really split on this topic. There was a poll about it and about half of people said he was done and the other half said he wasn't. His controversy continues to fascinate me, as well as people who are furious whenever he's even brought up.

I know a lot of people who dislike Zenos and DO know the lore but a lot of it, I think, comes from how the character's been used and the pacing of his story rather than his personality/motives.

I do understand the frustration of his fans, though. I mean I think my favorite thing to come out of Endwalker has been Fandaniel. I find him a hugely compelling, multi-faceted, tragic character who still manages to not tug on the sympathy strings as hard as Emet-Selch. I think he's an extremely well written villain and boy howdy am I pretty alone in this camp.

Both characters seem to divide the base.

[nighttimebunny]

I know a lot of people who dislike Zenos and DO know the lore but a lot of it, I think, comes from how the character's been used and the pacing of his story rather than his personality/motives.

I do understand the frustration of his fans, though. I mean I think my favorite thing to come out of Endwalker has been Fandaniel. I find him a hugely compelling, multi-faceted, tragic character who still manages to not tug on the sympathy strings as hard as Emet-Selch. I think he's an extremely well written villain and boy howdy am I pretty alone in this camp.

Both characters seem to divide the base.

Yeah, personally I didn't like Fandaniel (I enjoyed his antics with Zenos but when it came to Hermes and Amon he fell flat for me). Just shows people have different tastes in characters, there's nothing wrong with that at all. There are definitely people who are big into the lore who don't like Zenos too, that's fine. I'm not going to be upset that people hate him or i'd have to ignore the entire online community lol. If you have a good reason for not liking Zenos I'll respect it. It's when people are like "omg you like Zenos you're soo weird!!" that loses my respect/attention

[Ayuhra]

Yeah, personally I didn't like Fandaniel (I enjoyed his antics with Zenos but when it came to Hermes and Amon he fell flat for me). Just shows people have different tastes in characters, there's nothing wrong with that at all. There are definitely people who are big into the lore who don't like Zenos too, that's fine. I'm not going to be upset that people hate him or i'd have to ignore the entire online community lol. If you have a good reason for not liking Zenos I'll respect it. It's when people are like "omg you like Zenos you're soo weird!!" that loses my respect/attention

I actually do like Zenos as a character and I think he was handled as well as he could be in the version of the game we ended up getting.

Fandaniel I loved the first time he showed up (I like me some over-the top ridiculousness sometimes) but Endwalker ended up being way more Fandaniel-centric than I thought it would be.

(Fun fact about him being Amon: Given the timeline of events my dude is not just responsible for Endwalker but is also the main architect of Syrcus Tower, The Binding Coils, The Fractal Continuum, The Aetherochemical Research Facility, the Warring Triad containment bays, and the Diablo Armament. Don't hate Fandaniel for the Zodiark stuff. Hate him for the Dalriada stuff. I still have the nightmares.)