The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Ayche]

Which side is it that you think had respect for life? Because I've seen pro-hydaelyn and pro-zodiark/ancients people both claim their side has respect for life.

You know, one side was not going to genocide about all of the natural world for their cousin's lost soul.

[Kordarion]

You know, one side was not going to genocide about all of the natural world for their cousin's lost soul.

I agree, the ancients routinely made, altered and removed species based on their changing whims and arbitrary definition of natural order. I was just curious because while I took your statement as the ancients didn't have the greatest respect for life I didn't want to be presumptuous.

[Lersayil]

You know, one side was not going to genocide about all of the natural world for their cousin's lost soul.

I am both baffled and amused by this statement. It applies so much to both sides, I'm honestly not sure which one you mean. If its intentional you have my genuine admiration.

[RyuDragnier]

But perhaps more importantly, how was Venat even able to enact the sundering. Wouldn't it have required immense strength? It was not clear how many followers she had. Could there be more behind this?

Considering the missing body parts on Zodiark during the fight with Fandaniel, it's very likely that the Sundering was 13 slices with surgical precision, each one aiming for a weak point in Zodiark's design along with an exact amount of souls. This was likely possible because of the difference between concepts. Zodiark was created merely to control the flow of aether around the planet and save it, without the idea of battle in mind. Hydaelyn was likely created with the idea of battle and thus had the knowledge and skill to perform the Sundering without issues, especially considering that an AZEM was the heart of her.

Not quite. Azem 'defected' and the seat was left empty before the Convocation had reached a decision on Zodiark. Venat's followers tried to send word out to Azem, but received no response. The real question is: where is Azem during all this?

This is likely going to deal with the overarching plot of the next big multi-expansion story arc, considering the devs themselves stated that the 6.x patches are going to be leading into the next arc. So either we find out this expansion, or we don't and it's going to be the focal point of the next one.

[Necrotica]

You know, one side was not going to genocide about all of the natural world for their cousin's lost soul.

There has been way more death and suffering as a result of Venats decision then would have been if she let the Convocation carry out their plan.

[Alleo]

The more I've thought about it, the more I've realized why the "new life" conflict would not have worked. It seems clear the writers want the players to like the Ancients, we're even meant to like Hermes. Had the new life contained humanoids they would've been even more vilified in players' minds.

As for the rest, the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to Zodiark didn't return to the star, which changes things substantially. I wouldn't want the souls of my loved ones trapped inside of a primal indefinitely either. I'm surprised they went that direction because, in my mind, it makes the third sacrifice far more justifiable if only in terms of their souls being released.

We can like the Ancients and still find the actions of the Ascians horrible so I honestly see no problem with it being sentient life. (And even the Ancients probably would have had no problem with undoing us, since they saw us just as a familiar) It could also showcase how such people can be changed by tragedy (and tempering).

And about the sacrifice: Emet himself says that such a sacrifice would be held in high honor and that he would never cheapen that by creating fake shades. Yet he still did in the end. I think it was great how they showed the change in him. Also the people inside Zodiark seemed fine with that. They just were really depressed about the fact that Zodiark was bound right now but being Zodiark themselves? I got the feeling that they liked it. What better way to be the "drop of blood" for their beloved planet by being the will itself.

[Ayche]

I am both baffled and amused by this statement. It applies so much to both sides, I'm honestly not sure which one you mean. If its intentional you have my admiration.

There has been way more death and suffering as a result of Venats decision then would have been if she let the Convocation carry out their plan.

I don't know what moral calculus is being applied here, but I do not know how the death of the whole natural world is somehow equalized to the demotion of few god-wizards. God-Wizards, who on the record, were responsible for their own doom. So when one god-wizard is turned into 13 farmers and fishers, and natural order gets to, you know, not get disintegrated, I fail to see the math here.

[Lyth]

There has been way more death and suffering as a result of Venats decision then would have been if she let the Convocation carry out their plan.

Most definitely. Because if everyone retreats into hedonistic pursuits, pretends that the Final Days are no longer an issue, and dies and accepts oblivion quicker, then there will be far fewer lives brought into this world to subsequently experience suffering and death. You can only suffer and die if you've been born in the first place.

Or alternatively, 'in my personal value system, sundering someone is the spiritual equivalent of putting anchovies on pizza, which in turn is the ethical equivalent of killing them outright.'

Pointless arguments aside, did anyone else catch that Venat has some sort of link to Thavnair's old gods? From 'When All Hope Seems Lost':

'Know this my children. There is more ugliness than beauty in this world.
To live is to suffer. To drink of calamity and drown in anguish. To toil and be tested, always and ever.
'Tis a perilous path you walk. Death lurks in the dark, and is the sole promise that awaits at journey's end.
You will tremble with terror. You will weep tears of anger and despair...
...but do not avert your eyes. See your life for what it is.
Then will you see how the hardships make you strong.
Every doubt reforged as scales for your armor. Every agony to temper your blade.'

I didn't pick up on this the first time because we're only introduced to Venat afterwards. I'm really interested in what Myths of the Realm will turn up.

[SpectrePhantasia]

This was a binary decision
.

Grouping things into black and white like that is not only unrealistic for the setting, but precisely what the creators of the game discourage. You're putting words into Elidibus's mouth when you claim that all he would do upon essentially waving a white flag and withdrawing himself from Zodiark (Leaving Zodiark vulnerable) would be to say 'our side is right' and that's it. Just go back in? That's ridiculous. He was the one put on the pedestal to steer the course of the final days as Zodiark's heart. And you're going to imply that he has no authority as a current member of the Convocation, just because Emet-selch called him a bore in a completely divorced context? The one whose seat is specifically in place to mediate conflict? That everyone would turn a deaf ear after he's left their ship without a rudder? I cannot say I share your view of this at all, and quoting the exact same scene from before Hydaelyn's summoning is meaningless, when none of this seemed to happen before she was around.

Would Zodiark run out of batteries, so to speak? Well, it's likely Meteion would find a workaround, as she was looking to speed up the universe's demise, but what Zodiark did do was buy them time. A lot of time. 12000 years of time, and likely a whole lot more barring Fandaniel. I find a fully functioning Ancient society working ceaselessly for those millennia toward a single goal, to be an infinitely more reliable option than the whimsical dart toss that Venat ended up choosing (one that has already failed before, in Graha's timeline, as Endwalker's story has doomed it).

Your conclusions about the Ancient society are also rather one-sided. In the novella you mention, no one in the volcanic isle was said to be in danger, they were aware of the eruption well in advance, and Emet-selch notes they were probably already evacuating. Azem's motivations were kind, yet also based in 'I want to eat grape.' You say they were indifferent to lands beyond their own, but in Akademia Anyder we see reports of them dispatching phantomologists to afflicted areas across the oceans when the Final Days were just beginning, to combat the 'mounting threat.' How isolationist of them. Debate of their noninterference in other matters was also just that, debate. To imply they had their eternal condemnation coming because of the way their society was currently structured is silly to me. We spent an entire expansion and then some showing how societies are able to change, and that isn't limited to Sundered societies. Through side quests in Elpis you help Ancients hold rites for their past creations, you implant the idea of familiars having the potential to gain a soul, and most importantly, you convince Emet-selch, an Unsundered who endured thousands of years of despair and tragedy, that the sundered races had worth. They can absolutely change.

[Lyth]

Hmm... do we sacrifice unwilling non-Amaurotian souls to Zodiark to get our friends back? (Y/N?)

I didn't know that there was a third way to answer a 'Yes/No' question. And yes, the Amaurotians very clearly did change for the better. Just not as Amaurotians.

I don't know what moral calculus is being applied here, but I do not know how the death of the whole natural world is somehow equalized to the demotion of few god-wizards. God-Wizards, who on the record, were responsible for their own doom. So when one god-wizard is turned into 13 farmers and fishers, and natural order gets to, you know, not get disintegrated, I fail to see the math here.

Indeed.