The real reason DRK players are upset

[Sacrilegion]

So couple things.

1: No class is the same as it was in HW today. This isn't a Dark Knight thing, is a "three expansions later" thing.
2: Maybe if all the Dark Knights think they are not tanky enough now they shouldn't have all whined like little girls about not being the best tank DPS in ShB, just saying.
3: At this point in the games meta Dark Knight is easily the best off tank, they are far and away the best tank DPS, The Blackest Knight is a god like targetable mitigation tool that can add free DPS for the DK, and Oblation is another new targetable mitigator that even has a somewhat low cooldown and works off charges. PS you know that Dark Mind is really strong for off tanking too right, because what kind of damage is most likely to be hitting the raid not the main tank? Magic.

I am sorry you don't like EW DK, but talking like the class "has nothing" and the devs "don't know what to do with it" just shows that you (and most Dark Knight players) have no idea what you are talking about. It is obvious the devs knew exactly what they wanted for DK in this expansion, and frankly they achieved it.

My only Dark Knight complaint is the abilities are rewarded at stupid levels and basic fundamental skills are not given to them soon enough. I love going into a level 50 dungeon for example and only having two aoes, no aoe combo, and no method of regening mana with aoe other than blood weapon. Not having my real bread and butter mitigation tool TBN is nice too. It isn't like every other tank has a resource free aoe combo and a third aoe that costs no resources by 40-45 or anything.

You are clearly not a DRK player or have to do mental gymnastics to justify its kit. It compliments no one, it's a confused dps with fending armor. It feels like a terrible version of warrior and makes every healer not want to be a healer anymore. If you have anything less than a perfect comp, it's so painful to play.

[Weetzlo]

Bruh, "far and away the best DPS"? It's a literal 2% difference over GNB looking at averages and if you look to the top the gap closes with the best most thirsty DRKs putting out 1% more damage than the best GNBs. Dark Mind is good because you take less damage from raidwides, even when the healers are going to have to push out the same amount of raid healing since the other 7 members of the group didn't have Dark Mind? Fresh take. Also, TBN is not a DPS gain. If it pops, it is simply not a DPS loss.

[Anhra]

Bruh, "far and away the best DPS"? It's a literal 2% difference over GNB looking at averages and if you look to the top the gap closes with the best most thirsty DRKs putting out 1% more damage than the best GNBs. Dark Mind is good because you take less damage from raidwides, even when the healers are going to have to push out the same amount of raid healing since the other 7 members of the group didn't have Dark Mind? Fresh take. Also, TBN is not a DPS gain. If it pops, it is simply not a DPS loss.

TBN IS a dps loss, since everytime you use it, you could have used edge/flood of shadow instead. DRK right now, is almost as bad off as MCH was during early-mid Stormblood, in case anyone remembers this horrible mess.

[shao32]

TBN IS a dps loss, since everytime you use it, you could have used edge/flood of shadow instead. DRK right now, is almost as bad off as MCH was during early-mid Stormblood, in case anyone remembers this horrible mess.

TBN is a 2 step Flood/Edge if you broke the shield so no dps loss, the only arguable loss you could claim it had is if you abuse of it on the downtime you will have less Edges in raid buffs.

[Ryaduera]

So couple things.

1: No class is the same as it was in HW today. This isn't a Dark Knight thing, is a "three expansions later" thing.
2: Maybe if all the Dark Knights think they are not tanky enough now they shouldn't have all whined like little girls about not being the best tank DPS in ShB, just saying.
3: At this point in the games meta Dark Knight is easily the best off tank, they are far and away the best tank DPS, The Blackest Knight is a god like targetable mitigation tool that can add free DPS for the DK, and Oblation is another new targetable mitigator that even has a somewhat low cooldown and works off charges. PS you know that Dark Mind is really strong for off tanking too right, because what kind of damage is most likely to be hitting the raid not the main tank? Magic.

I am sorry you don't like EW DK, but talking like the class "has nothing" and the devs "don't know what to do with it" just shows that you (and most Dark Knight players) have no idea what you are talking about. It is obvious the devs knew exactly what they wanted for DK in this expansion, and frankly they achieved it.

My only Dark Knight complaint is the abilities are rewarded at stupid levels and basic fundamental skills are not given to them soon enough. I love going into a level 50 dungeon for example and only having two aoes, no aoe combo, and no method of regening mana with aoe other than blood weapon. Not having my real bread and butter mitigation tool TBN is nice too. It isn't like every other tank has a resource free aoe combo and a third aoe that costs no resources by 40-45 or anything.

I don't think you understood any of what I was saying. I even outright said balance wasn't even the issue, Dark Mind is negligible in terms of raid wides because the healers have to use the same raid wide heals anyway so I would much rather have overall damage reduction for the versatility. TBN is no longer the best mitigation skill either, I've shown my work for the math many times over. The more damage you take the less valuable TNB is over every other mitigation tool. Saying a tank is great because it makes a great off tank is just saying it's very nice to have a DPS that can handle tank swaps. It isn't about how Dark Knight is, it's about how everything DRK has ever gotten has been given to other tanks, but better. I could go on more about how clearly wrong your points are, but it looks like others beat me to the punch.

TBN IS a dps loss, since everytime you use it, you could have used edge/flood of shadow instead. DRK right now, is almost as bad off as MCH was during early-mid Stormblood, in case anyone remembers this horrible mess.

TBN is either a DPS loss if it doesn't break, or DPS neutral if it does.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

So couple things...

Regarding the talking point that the class "has nothing", I think the more appropriate quote is that it GOT nothing rather than has nothing. This all comes down to 1 main problematic theme that happened with Drk's changes for this expansion, which is lack of impact.

Assuming a single target raid (as most of these jobs are designed for) if we ignore the delirium changes that were done to make all jobs in line with the minute long rotation, the changes to Drk result in a single extra button pressed every 90 seconds from S&D. This is because when they combined AD and C&S they made it such that our lv 90 skill takes the place of a lv 56 skill in our rotation. You will realistically not feel any difference because they will generally be used in the same time and place in your rotation. Looking at the other jobs the closest to this is actually Pld since their lv90 skill will just take the place of one of their regular combos. However it feels different because you are hitting the same button 3 additional times as opposed to 3 different buttons. Meanwhile you have completely new buttons for War/Gnb making them feel all the more different. Next we have the unmend trait, which has a problem that no other job has which is we are actively rewarded for NOT taking advantage of the trait. The closest thing that the other jobs have to this is Pld's Clemency but even if we do use it, it feels impactful to the Pld since he can say I used it to save myself/others, but with Unmend you actively look for ways you can minimize its use and even if you can't, you don't feel any impact for having used it. Finally we have the Shadow traits. These round out the theme of lack of impact because it is the Shadow doing everything and due to its nature as a kind of dot, you will never notice any impact to the additional damage or abilities of the shadow. The closest to this would be War with its extra stack of Onslaught as you will generally use the skill on CD but even with this you will feel an impact by letting the player have a choice if they want to pocket that extra gap closer.

I don't know what the Devs were aiming for with Drk in this expansion, but if their aim was to feel identical to what we had in Shb then I guess they achieved it. The problem is they did this while making all the other tanks feel different and by giving them more sustainability than Drk only further highlighted a sustain issue that Drk already had back in Shb.

[Danelo]

So couple things...

I take issue with being called whiny or the generalization that are not so accurate so if this comes in hot... you deserve it:

1. So jobs change from expansion to expansion and this is the reason something akin to hw DRK can’t exist? DRK barely changed from 5.0 to 6.0 so spare us the excuse. Look at drg, it’s very similar, mainly added onto from hw. If you didn’t like it then make your case and leave it there.
2. Dark knight is a tank, not a dps. It needs a standard fare of defensive tools. It got the shaft in this regard. It may feel/be the same in raids, sad considering all the issues which have been laid out, but it is even more subpar in dungeons - dps doesn’t make up the difference in its defensive kit in dungeons. There are many Omni tanks around here so, while possible, you shouldn’t have to switch tanks to comfortably do base content through the storyline - dungeons are part of that.
3. For the last time, TBN IS NOT FREE. It has the greatest cost of all of them bcs two are completely free and the other pulls from a pool that is for defensive tools only. It is the only short cd that you have to get 100% percent value out of to not be a loss. Yes HoC, intervention, nascent are also targetable on others. Every tank got what DRK got but better and for dps... on a tank... Before you say it’s a trade off, keep in mind that gnb was the highest dps tank last go around and had a 1200 pot heal and a shield/heal in its 1-2-3 combo. So why can’t DRK at least have that considering LD? Damage specific mitigation’s are garbage. It’s not fun and that raidwide you used dm on while ot... what would have happened if you had done nothing? You would have been healed with the rest of the raid that also got hit by it so, ummm, not interesting - buff oblation for all damage and replace dm.

If the devs design for DRK was to get its players to leave for other tanks or rpr then you’re right, they achieved it. high on copium. So high.

[Veranolth]

An enhanced TBN that reduced the MP cost as a trait would probably help, at the very least.

[Danelo]

An enhanced TBN that reduced the MP cost as a trait would probably help, at the very least.

Devs will never do that bcs it will raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor since it would be a dps gain. We asked for that at the beginning of shbs too.

[Sacrilegion]

We aren't even asking to go back to HW DRK, what we want is actual effort put into the kit. EW DRK is the most lazy, janky, and outright incompetent job design I have ever seen. They're just gluing random shit onto the class and calling it an improvement. They need to get off their dps jobs and start taking a look at DRK and take it fucking seriously. I don't care if it can do good in raids, but it's terrible every where else and to have to tolerate it anywhere is cruel and unusual punishment.