So you're telling me..

[ZiraZ]

So give the rest of the melee something. You're argument is weak. You're basically saying that Reaper should do the lowest because it's got a 250p regen for the group and the rest don't. Ain't no one bringing a Reaper to the raid for their shield. It's a cherry on top.

In the end, you're salty and butt hurt. We get it.

I think the argument is sound, 40 pages seem to represent I'm not the only one that thinks it's unfair and I may be salty but at least I'm not liar and an obfuscator .

[tearagion]

pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

mind you theres no reason for reaper with actual group support, (i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

However, theres also no reason a class with dps buffs (purely talking dps buffs) can't offer equal raid dps compared to a "selfish" class, if anything if a class with raid dps buffs didn't actually offer higher RAID dps than the selfish class than having raid dps buffs in the first place would be a detriment. why use a class that does 10k and buffs the group for 500 if you can just take a class that does 11k by itself ?

If a selfish dps does the same or less rDPS as every class with raidbuffs then you never get any more damage from taking these damage focussed jobs. The reason being raid buffs are multiplicative, so adding another job with a generally higher rDPS and a raidbuff will result in a higher total raid damage than including one of those lower rDPS selfish classes, made more potent a difference as you align burst windows with each other/the fight more efficiently and accurately.

Did they design themselves into a bit of a hole? Yeah probably, but ultimately (when balancing with the very top performers in mind) selfish classes should have a bit more rDPS (especially SAM over RPR as RPR has a heal) to actually fulfil their role of being there to deal damage. As long as there are only two, and their rDPS isn't significantly ahead of any other job, then every DPS job has a place to perform without another job being an obvious substitution (player preference aside).

[Akiudo]

That's fine the problem is when utility exists and the jobs with utility are still over the ones with zero utility, on the surface jobs like reaper and sam should do similar rDPS but then there should be an utility tax on top of that because reaper can

care to tell me why you cut of the part where i literally stated

mind you theres no reason for reaper with actual group support, (i.e. the heal, not dps buffs) to be over samurai without a group heal.

?

[Kazimere]

If a selfish dps does the same or less rDPS as every class with raidbuffs then you never get any more damage from taking these damage focussed jobs. The reason being raid buffs are multiplicative, so adding another job with a generally higher rDPS and a raidbuff will result in a higher total raid damage than including one of those lower rDPS selfish classes, made more potent a difference as you align burst windows with each other/the fight more efficiently and accurately.

Did they design themselves into a bit of a hole? Yeah probably, but ultimately (when balancing with the very top performers in mind) selfish classes should have a bit more rDPS (especially SAM over RPR as RPR has a heal) to actually fulfil their role of being there to deal damage. As long as there are only two, and their rDPS isn't significantly ahead of any other job, then every DPS job has a place to perform.

Samurai and BLM topping rDPS was busted. It meant their aDPS was so far above the others that the buffed damage (which is given to the buffer) still wasn't enough to cover the spread. That is straight up busted. If people knew how to read the brackets this wouldn't be an issue, but they don't. They look at what fflogs uses for rankings and says that how things are, when it is not the case.

[Scuoll]

pretty sure he meant performance, not participation. it's clearly overrepresented but really, compared to some of the more extreme overrepresantations in the past this IS fine.

Im genuinely curious about this part, is this normal? In the current raid tier 3/4 dps slots seem hard locked for serious groups (rpr rdm bard), and right now 1 melee has more representation than 3 of them combined, which to me seems less than ideal, was it like this for example in stormblood when samurai just came out? Or in shb with the strongest class? I know back in the day there were weird things going on with raid buffs/debuffs where some classes had more sinergy, i am talking about recent years.

Coming over from wow i heard a lot of people saying the balance is better, but this seems pretty.. solved? Like all high end groups clearly agree that these 3 jobs are more valuable, i wouldnt say its good balance if all your composition building creativity is limited to the 4th slot. I can understand rdm because spammable instant cast rez is actually a unique upside which other classes dont have access to, in this thread we talked a lot about arcane crest but you cant even really quantify how good spammable rez on a dps is.
No clue about bard, and reaper does still have more utility than the other melees, even if it got nerfed its still more than 0 i guess.
Reaper's overall representation is a byproduct of a lot of things for sure, new, flashy, edgy fantasy, whatever, but i think the people going for world first dont care that much about that and just want the best shot at killing the boss fast

Patch notes were in a good direction, but maybe more changes were needed to shake up the rankings more? It would be cool to see more variety even at the top end.

[Scuoll]

Regarding finding a group if you aren't a Reaper. I think the opposite is true. It's is damn near impossible to find a group as a reaper (static or PF) since there are so many. I know I'm going to struggle to the point that I will probably just start my own groups to run Savage. It's that bad on Primal.

Oh i absolutely agree, idk where you got this from.
In fact in my very first post on the thread you'll see i made the same argument in that reaper taking a slight popularity hit would probably be a good thing for those who are into the fantasy/animation of the class, since it will still probably be the most popular class no matter what, and it would make it more tolerable for those who genuinely enjoy reaper's fantasy instead of the output.
I am not sure about how many people would quit it if it was nerfed,not unreasonably, but to maybe middle of the pack as the 3rd/4th best melee within a tight margin, like -3% from the number 1 or whatever.

Its also part of my point of why having a class so overrepresented in its role its probably a bad thing, if you can bring 5 and one is chosen over a third of the time its probably causing issues elsewhere aswell. Ofc i dont want people to stop enjoying it if they like it, but at the same time i also think it actually is not good for the overall game

[Kazimere]

I think the argument is sound, 40 pages seem to represent I'm not the only one that thinks it's unfair and I may be salty but at least I'm not liar and an obfuscator .

You're just going to keep running your mouth aren't you? That's the internet for you. For the record, a consensus don't make it right. Like really, are you trying to appeal to the masses as your justification? The masses used to be sure that the earth was flat at one time too. How'd that work out?

You're arguing that Reaper is over tuned. I provided you numbers that refute that. You then completely ignore the numbers and opt to move the goal post. So tell me, what percentage should Reaper drop because of this game breaking defensive that Reaper has?

[Akiudo]

If a selfish dps does the same or less rDPS as every class with raidbuffs then you never get any more damage from taking these damage focussed jobs. The reason being raid buffs are multiplicative, so adding another job with a generally higher rDPS and a raidbuff will result in a higher total raid damage than including one of those lower rDPS selfish classes, made more potent a difference as you align burst windows with each other/the fight more efficiently and accurately.

see but thats exactly the point, the classes with raid (dps) buffs NEED to actually deal more RAID dps in the perfect scenario or they will in fact allways be worse. the fact that they gain more by having an optimized group means they also lose more by having a group that isn't perfectly optimized.
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lets say classes had no "support", i.e. heals, shields, rezzes and whatnot, only dps buffs. exactly because raid buffs can and do stack to the high heavens you can now

1) make it so in a "perfect" scenario the buffers actually offer more raid dps meaning they will be stronger at the top and than get overtaken relatively early on when you go lower

or

2)you make it so that even in that case the "pure classes" do more meaning they will simply allways be stronger.

acting like samurais being overtaken at 95% while still being stronger everytime before is an issue but samurai simply allways being the stronger choice is actually good design is turning raidbuffs into an detriment.

[ZiraZ]

The masses used to be sure that the earth was flat at one time too. How'd that work out?

so just like the reaper masses saying AC was not overpowered, how'd that work out?

You're arguing that Reaper is over tuned. I provided you numbers that refute that. You then completely ignore the numbers and opt to move the goal post. So tell me, what percentage should Reaper drop because of this game breaking defensive that Reaper has?

No you haven't, you just compared reaper with monk which is also overtuned and called it balanced, then you compared it with sam and ignored the fact reaper can heal the raid.

[Kazimere]

Oh i absolutely agree, idk where you got this from.
In fact in my very first post on the thread you'll see i made the same argument in that reaper taking a slight popularity hit would probably be a good thing for those who are into the fantasy/animation of the class, since it will still probably be the most popular class no matter what, and it would make it more tolerable for those who genuinely enjoy reaper's fantasy instead of the output.
I am not sure about how many people would quit it if it was nerfed,not unreasonably, but to maybe middle of the pack as the 3rd/4th best melee within a tight margin, like -3% from the number 1 or whatever.

Its also part of my point of why having a class so overrepresented in its role its probably a bad thing, if you can bring 5 and one is chosen over a third of the time its probably causing issues elsewhere aswell. Ofc i dont want people to stop enjoying it if they like it, but at the same time i also think it actually is not good for the overall game

It is the 3rd best melee. Sam, Monk, and Reaper are tuned pretty tight in the aDPS department, and that is why you see the tuning being tight in rDPS (1.5-2%). The issue, is that Dragoon and Ninja still seem to be under performing. Like, it's not even close. That's a problem. Their aDPS needs to be brought up to bring them closer in rDPS. That's just how it works.