Dungeon design is just so boring and formulaic [Spoilers]

[kejakalope]

Wait, wait, wait. You're calling PotD and HoH exploratory... dungeons? They're randomly-generated grids with textures determined by floor number. You might as well call Aquapolis or Exciteatron 6000 a dungeon.

Yes. If you want to remove them from the sample pool, then there has never been an exploratory dungeon that wasn't absolutely reviled by the playerbase at large. Once you know the layout of something like Toto-Rak, you will never want to leave the main path ever again. It's no longer "exploratory" after the first run, it's a source of arguments between exhausted veterans and the one bright-eyed newbie getting lost down the hallways to see what's there. Nobody opens the bonus doors in Qarn. Nobody enjoys the weird design of Cutter's Cry. People despise Toto-Rak. People want to die when MSQ roulette gives them Castrum Meridianum. This is fundamentally an action game. You are asking for design that goes with a fundamentally different kind of MMO, like FFXI.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Yes. If you want to remove them from the sample pool, then there has never been an exploratory dungeon that wasn't absolutely reviled by the playerbase at large. Once you know the layout of something like Toto-Rak, you will never want to leave the main path ever again. It's no longer "exploratory" after the first run, it's a source of arguments between exhausted veterans and the one bright-eyed newbie getting lost down the hallways to see what's there. Nobody opens the bonus doors in Qarn. Nobody enjoys the weird design of Cutter's Cry. People despise Toto-Rak. People want to die when MSQ roulette gives them Castrum Meridianum. This is fundamentally an action game. You are asking for design that goes with a fundamentally different kind of MMO, like FFXI.

See, I disagree with this.

If dungeons hid chests/enemy drops with things that players would actually want or find value in, more players would enjoy exploring dungeons.

And yeah, that wouldn't change the fact that we would still have a sizeable portion of the community that would just speedrun the dungeons anyway. But that doesn't speak anything to the dungeon design so much as the job and leveling design. Let's consider PotD/HoH as part of the "exploration content" -- the reason people speedrun it isn't because the content itself isn't fun to explore. They speedrun it because the game encourages them to care more about leveling than the content they actually use to level.

I think part of the issue is definitely how the job/leveling system is set up. And I think another huge part of the issue is the very nature of MMOs and how XIV in particular doesn't seem to mind being inefficient and wasting players' time all over the place. If the UI, travel, market/inventory, etc. weren't so janky, on top of a system that requires players to play through a snowball of story just to unlock basic content...players wouldn't be so preoccupied with rushing through content all the time.

I really like FFXIV's worldbuilding and art design. Arguably the best in the series, and the best in the genre. As a game though, I can only barely tolerate it because of how underdeveloped and inconsiderate the systems are.

[kejakalope]

See, I disagree with this.

If dungeons hid chests/enemy drops with things that players would actually want or find value in, more players would enjoy exploring dungeons.

And yeah, that wouldn't change the fact that we would still have a sizeable portion of the community that would just speedrun the dungeons anyway. But that doesn't speak anything to the dungeon design so much as the job and leveling design. Let's consider PotD/HoH as part of the "exploration content" -- the reason people speedrun it isn't because the content itself isn't fun to explore. They speedrun it because the game encourages them to care more about leveling than the content they actually use to level.

I think part of the issue is definitely how the job/leveling system is set up. And I think another huge part of the issue is the very nature of MMOs and how XIV in particular doesn't seem to mind being inefficient and wasting players' time all over the place. If the UI, travel, market/inventory, etc. weren't so janky, on top of a system that requires players to play through a snowball of story just to unlock basic content...players wouldn't be so preoccupied with rushing through content all the time.

I really like FFXIV's worldbuilding and art design. Arguably the best in the series, and the best in the genre. As a game though, I can only barely tolerate it because of how underdeveloped and inconsiderate the systems are.

So the thing is, if you want content like that, it needs to be its own thing-- some kind of deep delve you can only go into once a day or somesuch, with a focus on chance at cool prizes rather than the XP bonanza that the two current deep dungeons have become. Not a standard dungeon on any of the standard roulettes, because that design and experience is wildly at odds with what the game's basic dungeon design is and has been since mid-ARR. Trying to totally shift course on standard dungeon design now would be a disaster of epic proportions.

[SeverianLyonesse]

So the thing is, if you want content like that, it needs to be its own thing-- some kind of deep delve you can only go into once a day or somesuch, with a focus on chance at cool prizes rather than the XP bonanza that the two current deep dungeons have become. Not a standard dungeon on any of the standard roulettes, because that design and experience is wildly at odds with what the game's basic dungeon design is and has been since mid-ARR. Trying to totally shift course on standard dungeon design now would be a disaster of epic proportions.

It would be at odds with the dungeon design, but I personally don't see anything wrong with just making content more enjoyable and preventing players from rushing roulettes. There is another thread about cheating the raid roulette, and my position is pretty much the same there. The point of a roulette--of randomly replaying past experiences with random cross-sections of the community--should not be rushing content, it should be enjoying content. If the overall game and how players play it is literally spending as little time as possible in large portions of the game, then either the game itself is boring or poorly designed in a way that defeats itself.

Tell me though, because I am missing your logic. How would it be a *disaster*?

[Azuri]

Tell me though, because I am missing your logic. How would it be a *disaster*?

Players with radically different goals thrown together in the same dungeon. There will inevitably be players who are not intersted in whatever rewards the dungeon has to offer and you will never entice them to "enjoy" the content itself. Because of this any hypothetical "dungeon but more involved" thing should be separated from regular dungeons and excluded from roulettes to prevent this clash of interests.

[Lium]

Just for those who thought this is the devs to blame: no it's 100% the players to blame.

Players wanted quick and easy dungeons. Every dungeon that tried to spice things up a little before had been met with cries of it being too difficult, take too much time, and we see people rather take the penalty and drop out at the start of the dungeon if they get it in the roulette.

Those people ruined it for all of us, and dungeons in FFXIV are simply never going to have any variation ever again.

It's just another one of those "the reason why we can't have nice things" situation, and the blame is 100% on the players, not on the devs.

Thank you.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Players with radically different goals thrown together in the same dungeon. There will inevitably be players who are not intersted in whatever rewards the dungeon has to offer and you will never entice them to "enjoy" the content itself. Because of this any hypothetical "dungeon but more involved" thing should be separated from regular dungeons and excluded from roulettes to prevent this clash of interests.

There are two presumptions with this that I don't agree with:

1) That in a randomized party, the rush-through players should be the ones everyone defaults toward. The process generally is and should be democratic, but ideally the content would be designed in a way where players didn't *mind* delays. Although again I point out that this is really deeply rooted in whole design and culture of MMOs and XIV in particular which are obsessed with grinding for more EXP/Gold than actually enjoying the gameplay.
2) That the point of roulettes is and/or should be to speed through content without really enjoying it. I personally don't even participate in roulettes unless I am at least partially motivated to enjoy a leisurely stroll down memory lane.

Thank you.

Mostly the players. I think all content creators should hold a responsibility to their consumers and respect their time. It's just complicated in the case of FF XIV because the problems with FF XIV that make it so unfun are so deeply pervasive across the entire game that I don't know how or where the devs could even begin to fix it. Let alone be able to see clearly what is wrong.

[Torlala]

yeah mythic plus worked so well for WoW didnt it? Lol

[Gameovers]

we need mythic plus dungeons

No we don't. The wow players don't even want those. Stop asking for other game's garbage.

[MoofiaBossVal]

The bland dungeon design is an extension of the misuse of dungeons, I feel. SE wants to pad out subscription times by padding out the grinds to level up each job (or to gear up at cap). The most efficient way to level up is to just queue for roulettes. Which means that players are being shoved into the same instances every day, and just want to complete them as fast as possible. So that in turn leads to dungeon design being affected, when really the problems begin higher up (ie, padded out grinds and players being incentivized to just run dungeons over and over).