Dungeon design is just so boring and formulaic [Spoilers]

[Shironeko_Narunyan]

I like the idea of deep dungeons, but the implementation wasn't great.

Add a new set of x floors every time the players beat a boss, and put nothing in that makes them "mandatory". Also add modes like "solo", "limited classes", "timed run", and put in explorable stuff like chests or secret rooms or rare mob spawns, and save the progress. I liked the score rankings in POTD and HOH, and the special titles, just add more stuff in like dye pots for furniture/mounts and the like.

[zcrash970]

Nah ppl here whined too much about "hard" dungeons that weren't actually hard and just had unique or uncommon area mechanics in them like Aurum Vale, Qarn, Cutters Cry, etc...

They also whined about ppl wanting to take side paths to get the additional chests...

That's part of the problem, yes. But the devs really do not like to take risks in design. They keep to a very strict formula in content

[Krotoan]

I could care less for things being optimal, but savages need way more coordination than anything else and mostly voice calls are a needed, lets not talk about ultimate, that's really only for like the top 1%-5%, but again, those are not the talking point, we are talking about dungeons that, and I bet a lot of people would enjoy something more than just Trash>Boss>Trash>Boss>Thrash>Boss with a total completion time of 15 mins.

The thing with FFXIV content in totality is it's a dance. You know the dance you don't really need to talk. Statics make it easier because everyone knows that everyone else knows the steps, but if you hand someone the stepsheet, they can learn. It's not like there are surprises or true RNG mechanics. If red, then go here, walk there, don't be near anyone. If blue then 1-4 gets together over here, 5-8 goes over there, swap after AOE goes off... etc etc.

Sorry.. long winded way of saying Ultimate and Savage aren't really difficult.. just complicated.

Yeah.. SOME people would enjoy non pack, pack, boss dungeons. I might... but going by the times the team has stepped outside those formulas and created some of the most "left" dungeons in the roulette, there's probably a reason they're sticking to it.

A lot of people say well yeah but those dungeons suck for other reasons, but when I have talked to people who go "UGH! THIS ONE!" when loading in they all don't like them because they're meandering and long potentially. Maybe we just need them done right.. maybe the audience for those just doesn't have enough content to be attracted...

But we cannot say the team hasn't tried innovating every once in a while.


Lots of people say "mythic +!" too.. but I haven't heard the good part of those. RNG gear isn't fun and anyone who thinks so probably has a degree of Stockholm syndrome from old games creating time syncs. Limited runs on top of that are torture. Wasting your run for the week on a useless reward is not good for anyone. What are the elements of Mythic + that are fun?

[Dogempire]

It's an area with preset "gear". With the only meaningful rewards being at the end, which require a stupid amount of time to get to.

That's kind of the point of deep dungeons? The further you delve the more risky it is that you die and the stronger the creatures you have to fight, but the better rewards you get

The reason dungeons are designed as they are is because people will optimize the fun out of everything to get their reward faster, so why bother adding alternate paths if people are just going to take the easiest one and leave the rest unexplored, if dungeons were super intricate and hard to navigate with lots of possible paths to get to each boss people would complain because they just want to get to the boss, kill it, get reward, and leave, having to do any thinking in the process of getting to the boss is a no-go.

[Quintessa]

Matoya's Relic was the only dungeon I hated design wise. The rest I like, especially the 85 and 87 dungeon.

[Escalon]

Snip~ Snip~

I mean yea, you are right that they are not "hard" in default sense, just complicated.

To the dungeon side of things :

Yeah, they stick to the easiest formula because the player base (gaming as whole) is changing, we are going from actually earning something over longer periods of time to instant gratification (I'm quite sure that is something we both can agree upon)

I'm not saying to should deviate from the norm that is acceptable by the majority of players, but give us optional more difficult dungeons that not requires a static but is a dungeon, not 1 boss encounter.

You will always have people who say : Ugh this dungeon.

That's why those dungeons should be put outside of the normal roulettes and put into their own category, expert should be renamed to Lv.90 Roulette (since its only 90 dungeons you get) and Expert should be dungeons that require you to actually focus on it. Heck, you could make a dungeon where at one point the party has to split up to do different things to progress.

And I cannot speak for Mythic+ raiding from wow, I left wow right before Cataclysm dropped, so I cannot speak of that topic.

[jadeblade]

The negativity about M+ dungeons is honestly understandable to me, considering how it started as a simple game mode and turned into being a cesspit as bad as if not more than raiding itself in WoW. In fact, several of the points you listed are actual negatives to the concept:

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

"...more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better..."
And that right there is the crux of the problem. Many players want to enjoy a casual game for fun. They're not looking to find some external meaning to their existence, to get some shiny pixelated reward that can be shoved in others faces to show that "they're worthy". They just want to play make believe in a fun environment on go on simple adventures, which this game has been doing for over a decade now and doing it so well that they've had the largest influx of players that they've ever seen.

Seems to me that SE is already doing it right. Which leads us back to:
"Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?"
Yeah, actually, it would appear that would be the case (although 'actual challenge' is incredibly subjective), especially considering how immensely popular the game is now. Whereas competitors who have been striving to accomplish all of those "make the game hard, tougher, more intense and FORCE players to get better!!!" factors aren't doing as well.

Yup, thank you.

Hardcore epeen achiever do savage or go back to wow, or achieve something in life. When I am done with work I want to do some brain dead dungeons,I play this game to mostly relax not to achieve crap, because you know it is A GAME if I have time on weekends I do savage you want a challange do savage, SE keep the dungeons as is.

[Rhysati]

we need mythic plus dungeons

No. Go play WoW if that's what you want. Keep that cancer away from this game.

[Gullis]

I wish they would remove barriers. Pulling off big pulls is so much fun, it gives you a reason to press your buttons. MT. Gulg is so fun

[icrot]

My man, you forgot the trigger warning if you are going to mention WoW. Amateurs...

They could include an "Expert" or "Savage" version with all the dungeons and give more Tomestomes or something, I wouldn't mind that.