Dungeon design is just so boring and formulaic [Spoilers]

[Alxyzntlct]

...sheesh, all that negativity as soon as someone mentions Mythic+ dungeons, even if the implementation of them was kinda dumb (degrading mythic+ keys as you wipe is kind of a turn-off). It doesn't need to be a carbon copy of Mythic+, but having harder content in general never hurts and the more exists, the more people may consider giving it a shot. Savage is great and all, but an occasional hard dungeon, not just by name but also by actual dfficulty, or alternative higher difficulty content would really nice to have.

Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?

I also raise the point that more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better would benefit the playerbase as a whole - I may not speak for all, but definitely for many about those who rolled their eyes at people they see in duty finder and think "what the hell is this guy doing?".

So, yes please, more harder difficulty dungeons / content.

The negativity about M+ dungeons is honestly understandable to me, considering how it started as a simple game mode and turned into being a cesspit as bad as if not more than raiding itself in WoW. In fact, several of the points you listed are actual negatives to the concept:

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

"...more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better..."
And that right there is the crux of the problem. Many players want to enjoy a casual game for fun. They're not looking to find some external meaning to their existence, to get some shiny pixelated reward that can be shoved in others faces to show that "they're worthy". They just want to play make believe in a fun environment on go on simple adventures, which this game has been doing for over a decade now and doing it so well that they've had the largest influx of players that they've ever seen.

Seems to me that SE is already doing it right. Which leads us back to:
"Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?"
Yeah, actually, it would appear that would be the case (although 'actual challenge' is incredibly subjective), especially considering how immensely popular the game is now. Whereas competitors who have been striving to accomplish all of those "make the game hard, tougher, more intense and FORCE players to get better!!!" factors aren't doing as well.

[Shurrikhan]

The negativity about M+ dungeons is honestly understandable to me, considering how it started as a simple game mode and turned into being a cesspit as bad as if not more than raiding itself in WoW. In fact, several of the points you listed are actual negatives to the concept:

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

Mythic 0 dungeons were no harder, relative to surrounding content, than modern Normal Raids are in XIV. It didn't start getting exclusive or particularly demanding until ~+16, by which point one had already capped out the loot rewards and could only further progress achievements, not gear. And as you've just noted, options and rewards loops are not one and the same thing.

"...more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better..."
And that right there is the crux of the problem. Many players want to enjoy a casual game for fun. They're not looking to find some external meaning to their existence, to get some shiny pixelated reward that can be shoved in others faces to show that "they're worthy". They just want to play make believe in a fun environment on go on simple adventures, which this game has been doing for over a decade now and doing it so well that they've had the largest influx of players that they've ever seen.

And they can. The added difficulty modes are optional. Savage raids do not suddenly force themselves into the lives of players who do not want to do Savage. Why then would Savage dungeons?

Seems to me that SE is already doing it right.

By what metric actually related to dungeons themselves? Spare me the "the game (prior to the sale freeze) was selling better than ever!" as if the present dungeon design being composed of unvaried hallway-boss-hallway design, of all things, were some relevant factor to that.

Which leads us back to:
"Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?"
Yeah, actually, it would appear that would be the case

Who is this "we" for whom this is the case, then? How broad a body of players do you claim your views are representative of? It's certainly not one which includes me or even a good third of this thread alone. And judging by the number of threads and results of polls that have arisen on this subject, it's clearly far from all-encompassing.

especially considering how immensely popular the game is now.

And there it is. 'XIV holding a larger share of the market than before, which can clearly have nothing to do with decreased attractiveness of competitors, must mean that XIV's dungeon design is perfectly fine and cannot stand to improve.' That... certainly didn't take long.

[TaleraRistain]

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

Yeah that's the thing with requests like this. Say SE did put harder dungeons in with whatever challenging mechanics people ask for. But they don't add special new rewards. These so-called challenge seekers won't touch it. Because they don't really want challenge for challenge. They want something special just for them.

[SieyaM]

Yeah that's the thing with requests like this. Say SE did put harder dungeons in with whatever challenging mechanics people ask for. But they don't add special new rewards. These so-called challenge seekers won't touch it. Because they don't really want challenge for challenge. They want something special just for them.

This actually is the real reason for the request most of the time. They don't want harder or challenging content for the sake of the challenge or to try and guide the player base to improve, they want something they can do and others cannot so they can have some kind of proof of being better. The thing is that already exists in game with Ultimate but since it is so removed from all other content they don't get to flaunt it in any way that matters.

[TaleraRistain]

This actually is the real reason for the request most of the time. They don't want harder or challenging content for the sake of the challenge or to try and guide the player base to improve, they want something they can do and others cannot so they can have some kind of proof of being better. The thing is that already exists in game with Ultimate but since it is so removed from all other content they don't get to flaunt it in any way that matters.

Bingo.

They try to dress it up as wanting something harder or with more teeth but they would not touch it if it didn't have special only-them rewards. Because there are ways they can challenge themselves now that they scoff at since it doesn't have unique rewards.

I have no problem if someone wants to suggest it. I just wish more of those suggesting it would be honest with themselves about it.

[Miles064]

Yeah that's the thing with requests like this. Say SE did put harder dungeons in with whatever challenging mechanics people ask for. But they don't add special new rewards. These so-called challenge seekers won't touch it. Because they don't really want challenge for challenge. They want something special just for them.

What's wrong with wanting something harder and getting something out of it? It could be glamors and tomes for all I care. I like dungeons with some bite to them. My only options for harder fights are trials and savage, which are arena fights not dungeons. The idea that people only want harder stuff to flex on others is crazy.

[Escalon]

What's wrong with wanting something harder and getting something out of it? It could be glamors and tomes for all I care. I like dungeons with some bite to them. My only options for harder fights are trials and savage, which are arena fights not dungeons. The idea that people only want harder stuff to flex on others is crazy.

This, forever this.

Keep story dungeons easy, keep them brain dead, but give us OPTIONS to run something that requires more than 1 brain cell but not a dedicated static. Thats my biggest issue, there is no in-between, on a scale I would dare to say its like this (1 easiest - 6 hardest) = 1 (dungeons), 2 (Alliance raids/raids), 3 (nothing), 4(nothing), 5 (savages) 6 (Ultimate).

If you dont have a dedicated static, you are literally stuck doing the most braindead things in this game, there is no middle ground. (and before you say, get a static, not everyone wants/can dedicate them self's to a static for 1-4 times a week for 3 hours)

[Krotoan]

If you dont have a dedicated static, you are literally stuck doing the most braindead things in this game, there is no middle ground. (and before you say, get a static, not everyone wants/can dedicate them self's to a static for 1-4 times a week for 3 hours)

Not.. been my experience in the past. I haven't run newer Savage/ultimate stuff.. but in the past I've been able to PF stuff.

it's probably not as optimal but It's gotten things done.

[Escalon]

Not.. been my experience in the past. I haven't run newer Savage/ultimate stuff.. but in the past I've been able to PF stuff.

it's probably not as optimal but It's gotten things done.

I could care less for things being optimal, but savages need way more coordination than anything else and mostly voice calls are a needed, lets not talk about ultimate, that's really only for like the top 1%-5%, but again, those are not the talking point, we are talking about dungeons that, and I bet a lot of people would enjoy something more than just Trash>Boss>Trash>Boss>Thrash>Boss with a total completion time of 15 mins.

[Krotoan]

I could care less for things being optimal, but savages need way more coordination than anything else and mostly voice calls are a needed, lets not talk about ultimate, that's really only for like the top 1%-5%, but again, those are not the talking point, we are talking about dungeons that, and I bet a lot of people would enjoy something more than just Trash>Boss>Trash>Boss>Thrash>Boss with a total completion time of 15 mins.

The thing with FFXIV content in totality is it's a dance. You know the dance you don't really need to talk. Statics make it easier because everyone knows that everyone else knows the steps, but if you hand someone the stepsheet, they can learn. It's not like there are surprises or true RNG mechanics. If red, then go here, walk there, don't be near anyone. If blue then 1-4 gets together over here, 5-8 goes over there, swap after AOE goes off... etc etc.

Sorry.. long winded way of saying Ultimate and Savage aren't really difficult.. just complicated.

Yeah.. SOME people would enjoy non pack, pack, boss dungeons. I might... but going by the times the team has stepped outside those formulas and created some of the most "left" dungeons in the roulette, there's probably a reason they're sticking to it.

A lot of people say well yeah but those dungeons suck for other reasons, but when I have talked to people who go "UGH! THIS ONE!" when loading in they all don't like them because they're meandering and long potentially. Maybe we just need them done right.. maybe the audience for those just doesn't have enough content to be attracted...

But we cannot say the team hasn't tried innovating every once in a while.


Lots of people say "mythic +!" too.. but I haven't heard the good part of those. RNG gear isn't fun and anyone who thinks so probably has a degree of Stockholm syndrome from old games creating time syncs. Limited runs on top of that are torture. Wasting your run for the week on a useless reward is not good for anyone. What are the elements of Mythic + that are fun?