Dungeon design is just so boring and formulaic [Spoilers]

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

...sheesh, all that negativity as soon as someone mentions Mythic+ dungeons, even if the implementation of them was kinda dumb (degrading mythic+ keys as you wipe is kind of a turn-off). It doesn't need to be a carbon copy of Mythic+, but having harder content in general never hurts and the more exists, the more people may consider giving it a shot. Savage is great and all, but an occasional hard dungeon, not just by name but also by actual dfficulty, or alternative higher difficulty content would really nice to have.

Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?

I also raise the point that more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better would benefit the playerbase as a whole - I may not speak for all, but definitely for many about those who rolled their eyes at people they see in duty finder and think "what the hell is this guy doing?".

So, yes please, more harder difficulty dungeons / content.

[Shurrikhan]

Just for those who thought this is the devs to blame: no it's 100% the players to blame.

Players wanted quick and easy dungeons. Every dungeon that tried to spice things up a little before had been met with cries of it being too difficult, take too much time, and we see people rather take the penalty and drop out at the start of the dungeon if they get it in the roulette.

Some highly vocal players did when their preferences didn't match the existing state. Obviously, that group does not include all players, or we wouldn't have seen further complaints the moment that disconnect reversed (see the backlash to the Amdapor Keep nerfs and progressively more threads like this one with each expansion). I loved Pharos Sirius specifically because it was more of an investment.

Should its rewards have been proportional to its added time typically required? Yes, absolutely; it made no sense for it to give the exact same rewards as another dungeon that could be done in 75 to 60% the time. But that's the thing -- they don't have to give each dungeon in a particular patch or tier the same exact total rewards. They don't have to give a flat bonus via roulettes instead of scalar. Reward players fairly, instead of giving varying content the same flat reward, and suddenly --their "optimized reward per time spent" no longer wasted-- even Johnny Quickbritches is plenty tolerant of getting content above the lowest denominator.

Beware of conflating gameplay preference with a desire for balance/efficiency. Efficiency does not demand braindead dungeons; it demands that reward be balanced against time required.

[Saraide]

...sheesh, all that negativity as soon as someone mentions Mythic+ dungeons, even if the implementation of them was kinda dumb (degrading mythic+ keys as you wipe is kind of a turn-off). It doesn't need to be a carbon copy of Mythic+, but having harder content in general never hurts and the more exists, the more people may consider giving it a shot. Savage is great and all, but an occasional hard dungeon, not just by name but also by actual dfficulty, or alternative higher difficulty content would really nice to have.

Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?

I also raise the point that more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better would benefit the playerbase as a whole - I may not speak for all, but definitely for many about those who rolled their eyes at people they see in duty finder and think "what the hell is this guy doing?".

So, yes please, more harder difficulty dungeons / content.

I think some people are a bit tired of the suggestion outside of just going "wow = bad" on anything they dont like. It's not a new suggestion, it's one brought up many times, we even have dev comments on it and from the looks of it, hard 4 player content clashes a bit with the current design philosophy of the game.

[Dogempire]

Wait, wait, wait. You're calling PotD and HoH exploratory... dungeons? They're randomly-generated grids with textures determined by floor number. You might as well call Aquapolis or Exciteatron 6000 a dungeon.

It's an area filled with monsters, patrols, and loot. The goal is to progress deeper into the dungeon (Or I guess up to a higher floor if it's HoH) and beat the boss at the end of every 10th floor while gradually gaining levels (Or really just upgrading your weapon/armor). It's the closest to a dungeon you'll get in this game

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I think some people are a bit tired of the suggestion outside of just going "wow = bad" on anything they dont like. It's not a new suggestion, it's one brought up many times, we even have dev comments on it and from the looks of it, hard 4 player content clashes a bit with the current design philosophy of the game.

Which is funny, because WoW isn't or at least wasn't all that bad and is instead one of the reasons why FFXIV actually managed to grow as it did due to loving developers who liked WoW and wanted to make FFXIV into something similar. Current WoW is dire and awful, but not everything it implemented was bad or was fundamentally flawed.

[Alxyzntlct]

...sheesh, all that negativity as soon as someone mentions Mythic+ dungeons, even if the implementation of them was kinda dumb (degrading mythic+ keys as you wipe is kind of a turn-off). It doesn't need to be a carbon copy of Mythic+, but having harder content in general never hurts and the more exists, the more people may consider giving it a shot. Savage is great and all, but an occasional hard dungeon, not just by name but also by actual dfficulty, or alternative higher difficulty content would really nice to have.

Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?

I also raise the point that more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better would benefit the playerbase as a whole - I may not speak for all, but definitely for many about those who rolled their eyes at people they see in duty finder and think "what the hell is this guy doing?".

So, yes please, more harder difficulty dungeons / content.

The negativity about M+ dungeons is honestly understandable to me, considering how it started as a simple game mode and turned into being a cesspit as bad as if not more than raiding itself in WoW. In fact, several of the points you listed are actual negatives to the concept:

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

"...more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better..."
And that right there is the crux of the problem. Many players want to enjoy a casual game for fun. They're not looking to find some external meaning to their existence, to get some shiny pixelated reward that can be shoved in others faces to show that "they're worthy". They just want to play make believe in a fun environment on go on simple adventures, which this game has been doing for over a decade now and doing it so well that they've had the largest influx of players that they've ever seen.

Seems to me that SE is already doing it right. Which leads us back to:
"Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?"
Yeah, actually, it would appear that would be the case (although 'actual challenge' is incredibly subjective), especially considering how immensely popular the game is now. Whereas competitors who have been striving to accomplish all of those "make the game hard, tougher, more intense and FORCE players to get better!!!" factors aren't doing as well.

[Xtro99]

we need mythic plus dungeons

As someone that has all KSM achievements, no thank you.

[Shurrikhan]

The negativity about M+ dungeons is honestly understandable to me, considering how it started as a simple game mode and turned into being a cesspit as bad as if not more than raiding itself in WoW. In fact, several of the points you listed are actual negatives to the concept:

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

Mythic 0 dungeons were no harder, relative to surrounding content, than modern Normal Raids are in XIV. It didn't start getting exclusive or particularly demanding until ~+16, by which point one had already capped out the loot rewards and could only further progress achievements, not gear. And as you've just noted, options and rewards loops are not one and the same thing.

"...more high-difficulty content that would force players to get better..."
And that right there is the crux of the problem. Many players want to enjoy a casual game for fun. They're not looking to find some external meaning to their existence, to get some shiny pixelated reward that can be shoved in others faces to show that "they're worthy". They just want to play make believe in a fun environment on go on simple adventures, which this game has been doing for over a decade now and doing it so well that they've had the largest influx of players that they've ever seen.

And they can. The added difficulty modes are optional. Savage raids do not suddenly force themselves into the lives of players who do not want to do Savage. Why then would Savage dungeons?

Seems to me that SE is already doing it right.

By what metric actually related to dungeons themselves? Spare me the "the game (prior to the sale freeze) was selling better than ever!" as if the present dungeon design being composed of unvaried hallway-boss-hallway design, of all things, were some relevant factor to that.

Which leads us back to:
"Or are we really content with staying in our current cycle of dungeons never offering an actual challenge and we instead have to rely on Savage and a lesser degree Extreme?"
Yeah, actually, it would appear that would be the case

Who is this "we" for whom this is the case, then? How broad a body of players do you claim your views are representative of? It's certainly not one which includes me or even a good third of this thread alone. And judging by the number of threads and results of polls that have arisen on this subject, it's clearly far from all-encompassing.

especially considering how immensely popular the game is now.

And there it is. 'XIV holding a larger share of the market than before, which can clearly have nothing to do with decreased attractiveness of competitors, must mean that XIV's dungeon design is perfectly fine and cannot stand to improve.' That... certainly didn't take long.

[TaleraRistain]

"...but having harder content in general never hurts..."
Actually, yeah, it can if the content gets so hard that the majority of players struggle to complete it. ESPECIALLY if rewards are tied to it, because that leads to the community gating itself, people buying runs, etc., which makes even attempting to get into that "harder content" more difficult

Yeah that's the thing with requests like this. Say SE did put harder dungeons in with whatever challenging mechanics people ask for. But they don't add special new rewards. These so-called challenge seekers won't touch it. Because they don't really want challenge for challenge. They want something special just for them.

[SieyaM]

Yeah that's the thing with requests like this. Say SE did put harder dungeons in with whatever challenging mechanics people ask for. But they don't add special new rewards. These so-called challenge seekers won't touch it. Because they don't really want challenge for challenge. They want something special just for them.

This actually is the real reason for the request most of the time. They don't want harder or challenging content for the sake of the challenge or to try and guide the player base to improve, they want something they can do and others cannot so they can have some kind of proof of being better. The thing is that already exists in game with Ultimate but since it is so removed from all other content they don't get to flaunt it in any way that matters.