So you're telling me..

[tearagion]

They are outright top dps, in the bracket that gauges that: aDPS. Reaper, monk, drg, and nin should be outperforming samurai in rdps. It's a problem that only monk and reaper do at the moment. The fact that Samurai was beating everyone in rDPS and aDPS in StB is a problem and it was broken. If you're only defense is that they bring nothing else to the table except for dps, then you're going to need a stronger argument.

He doesn't need a stronger argument, the other competing melees (mnk and reaper) both bring raid hp recovery options so they should be marginally lower in rDPS than the class that doesn't bring anything but damage. If SAM is being beaten in rDPS outside of the top percentiles it probably means it's bordering not worth bringing at all in those top percentiles as they will tend to use raidbuffs much better than an average raider.

[Kazimere]

He doesn't need a stronger argument, the other competing melees (mnk and reaper) both bring raid hp recovery options so they should be marginally lower in rDPS than the class that doesn't bring anything but damage. If SAM is being beaten in rDPS outside of the top percentiles it probably means it's bordering not worth bringing at all in those top percentiles as they will tend to use raidbuffs much better than an average raider.

If sub 90% isn't able to compete then that's an issue of playing better. Like I said before, the fact that Samurai was beating everyone in both brackets in StB was a problem, and it was broken. They are pushing the most DPS of any melee, as is indicated by their spot on the aDPS bracket. It's just not a blowout anymore.

If anything, mediocre Samurai can't get away with being mediocre anymore. This is a good thing.

[Ransu]

the fact that Samurai was beating everyone in both brackets in StB was a problem, and it was broken.

Fine, then give us a raid buff.

[Kazimere]

Fine, then give us a raid buff.

Line up you burst with ours then. You fail to understand that Reaper's raid buff functions selfishly. It is not like the others.

[Ransu]

Line up you burst with ours then. You fail to understand that Reaper's raid buff functions selfishly. It is not like the others.

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

[IruruCece]

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

Hilariously enough, and I discussed this very briefly with Kazimere over Discord, this is exactly the problem that Monk faced exiting Heavensward: no raid buffs (it did have the blunt debuff at one point... but how many jobs did that benefit?), entirely a selfish DPS that was being left behind due to a stacking buff meta that overrode whatever personal contributions to a raid that even the best Monk players could muster. With Stormblood came some form of utility (for limited comps), as well as the introduction of a new selfish DPS job to eat its lunch. Which, ultimately, Samurai did in both terms of design and player population, and still is now.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html (credit to xou_ from Twintania for linking this in a Ninja thread.)

SE already has an extremely poor record of shifting selfish DPS into being more supportive, it's called Monk. If the "solution" that has been peddled here (give Samurai a raid utility or two beyond just straight up damage) does get implemented, I have zero faith in SE's ability to integrate that into a job that hasn't had such a utility for 90 levels and three expansions without completely screwing it up, because they couldn't do it right for Monk that existed without such things for ARR and HW without ultimately compromising its identity and gameplay.

As I said to Kazimere, I think it's totally acceptable for there to be purely selfish DPS in the game, DPS that provide no 'utility' to a raid beyond their damage. The 'fix' for them isn't to give them utilities, it's to make their damage THE thing that people bring them for. It has to be decisively such, because if not, the job will get left behind. Again, we have Monk as the example for what happens to a selfish DPS when that isn't the case, and we also have everything that's happened to it from Stormblood on as an example of why SE shouldn't be trusted in that regard.

[Kazimere]

Hilariously enough, and I discussed this very briefly with Kazimere over Discord, this is exactly the problem that Monk faced exiting Heavensward: no raid buffs (it did have the blunt debuff at one point... but how many jobs did that benefit?), entirely a selfish DPS that was being left behind due to a stacking buff meta that overrode whatever personal contributions to a raid that even the best Monk players could muster. With Stormblood came some form of utility (for limited comps), as well as the introduction of a new selfish DPS job to eat its lunch. Which, ultimately, Samurai did in both terms of design and player population, and still is now.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html (credit to xou_ from Twintania for linking this in a Ninja thread.)

SE already has an extremely poor record of shifting selfish DPS into being more supportive, it's called Monk. If the "solution" that has been peddled here (give Samurai a raid utility or two beyond just straight up damage) does get implemented, I have zero faith in SE's ability to integrate that into a job that hasn't had such a utility for 90 levels and three expansions without completely screwing it up, because they couldn't do it right for Monk that existed without such things for ARR and HW without ultimately compromising its identity and gameplay.

As I said to Kazimere, I think it's totally acceptable for there to be purely selfish DPS in the game, DPS that provide no 'utility' to a raid beyond their damage. The 'fix' for them isn't to give them utilities, it's to make their damage THE thing that people bring them for. It has to be decisively such, because if not, the job will get left behind. Again, we have Monk as the example for what happens to a selfish DPS when that isn't the case, and we also have everything that's happened to it from Stormblood on as an example of why SE shouldn't be trusted in that regard.

People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets.

If anything Sam could bump up another percent in the aDPS department, giving it a solid 2-3% lead over reaper and monk. Then, boost DRG and NIN up a bit more if their recent tinkering didn't do the trick. That would even them all out in the rDPS department better. You're going to have a top and a bottom though. It's just the way it is. However, that top should never be Sam in the rDPS department. At best, it should be third.

[Kazimere]

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

You do understand that the DPS that is boosted on the Sam from raid buffs is given to the job that is giving the buff, right? Like I said, if the Sam is topping rDPS as well, it is because it is so powerful in the aDPS department that its boosted DPS is still overshadowing the buffer, who is the one being given the numbers from the boost. You talk of balance, yet completely overlook how busted that is. This is essentially why Sam was a lock for speed runs. They were so powerful that they didn't need buffs.

Sam is 2-3% behind RPR and MNK, AO last week. Boost DRG and NIN to be above Sam in rDPS, as well, and all will be well.

[tearagion]

If sub 90% isn't able to compete then that's an issue of playing better. Like I said before, the fact that Samurai was beating everyone in both brackets in StB was a problem, and it was broken. They are pushing the most DPS of any melee, as is indicated by their spot on the aDPS bracket. It's just not a blowout anymore.

If anything, mediocre Samurai can't get away with being mediocre anymore. This is a good thing.

Good job dodging the main point of the post. SAM rDPS should be higher than MNK and RPR, because those two offer more than damage to the party, and it's not. I don't care how unbalanced SAM was in SB because it isn't SB anymore. I did in fact stipulate "marginally".

[Kazimere]

Good job dodging the main point of the post. SAM rDPS should be higher than MNK and RPR, because those two offer more than damage to the party, and it's not. I don't care how unbalanced SAM was in SB because it isn't SB anymore. I did in fact stipulate "marginally".

You're right, it's not StB. Things are as they should be right now, minus DRG and Nin not outdoing Sam in the rDPS department. Reaper and Monk are like 2-3% above Samurai in rDPS. The sky is falling!