Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[Caduagm]

Dissidia Cecil says hi.

Edit=his band abilities from FFIV: the After Years as well. Man were those fun.

Girl, bye. Make us a favor and delete the account.

[rewd]

Fighting game spin-offs are an exception, not a rule.

Best expressed in their words

Exceptions do not a rule make

[aveyond-dreams]

I love how this thread has derailed into some pretending that Paladin/Knight having holy sword attacks/magic is in any way equivalent to how prominent the poison magic was part of Summoner's kit and how badly it twisted its thematic identity, compounded with bad gameplay overall. Seriously, this isn't productive and does nothing to accomplish what I assume your goal is in having your "complex!" dot caster added back in some way shape or form.

Respectfully, you need to let this go.

[BaconBits]

Respectfully, you need to let this go.

Somehow I get the feeling you're the last person to be telling anyone to let something go.

[CKNovel]

Somehow I get the feeling you're the last person to be telling anyone to let something go.

At this point debating with aveyond can only results in personal attack and it's time to stop paying attention to them.
Please note they are not even playing SMN, they haven't played EW at all. If this is an alt, the questionable individual has nothing to do other than stalking the forum during the day to "troll" people.

I'm no psychologist but I recommend help from experts to them.

[mathias-merodach]

I love how this thread has derailed into some pretending that Paladin/Knight having holy sword attacks/magic is in any way equivalent to how prominent the poison magic was part of Summoner's kit and how badly it twisted its thematic identity, compounded with bad gameplay overall. Seriously, this isn't productive and does nothing to accomplish what I assume your goal is in having your "complex!" dot caster added back in some way shape or form.

Respectfully, you need to let this go.

I'm of the belief that your focus on theme is misguided. As I've pointed out, and Final Fantasy games have shown, the only "theme" it's consistently had, mechanically, is calling a thing to do a thing. Any further expression of theme is conflation on your part as SMN is just one of many jobs that have adapted itself to the lore of the game. The dots further fit as a consistent part of how all jobs have developed from their start. Take LNC to DRG, it's brought up in dialogue, during the HW quests, how the WoL's style is different than dragoons as you've been fighting different foes and the foundation of polearm fighting began with Gridianian spearmanship. The same occurs with PGL to MNK where Widargelt, in Stormblood, brings up the foundation of your style is from Ul'dah's PGL guild. This translates for ARC to SMN; you are rebuilding a discipline lost with the fall of Allag with broken fragments. The WoL has no other base outside of the abilities they learned as an Arcanist and what they and Y'mhitra are able to piece together. By your logic, 14 has twisted the thematic identity of Carbuncle. Despite doing more in games like FF11, I'd argue is more known as the Reflect summon from its first appearance in 5. There, however, is the point. Just as Carbuncle, classes can change. They can adapt like Carbuncle who goes from just casting reflect to getting 9 different abilities in 11 that allow it to attack, heal, and -poison- with its Poison Nails attack.

Your other statements, "complex" and "bad gameplay" is entirely subjective. Others can agree, but still others can find it simple, good, or any combination of. You can like the changes. I, for one, am happy that you do. However, you can neither, nor is it right to attempt to, force your opinions upon. Just as much as it is wrong to then speak down to them like they are beneath you when they do not agree. There are those that do not and they have just as much of a right to feel that way and speak their minds about it. It is anecdotal evidence at best to say there is "so many" people that love the new changes. You could find 1000 that they love it. For example's sake, if there are 100K people that play the game, that's only 1% of the player base. Yes, that can certainly go the other way. What's unchanging is that there are people on both sides: the approve and the disapprove. I, like others, am firmly in the latter. As is -my- choice after having played both.

[aveyond-dreams]

Thank you for your post. However, you do realize that continuing this discussion is not an effective way to advocate for the cause of dot casters much less justifying the state of Summoner prior to 6.0?

What is the goal? The return of poison magic and its interactions? There is not much chance of that ever resurfacing in Summoner again but if you ask politely there is a nonzero chance of Necromancer, Time Mage, or a similar caster being added in 7.0 where they could include those mechanics. Further explorations of its original themes/lore? Possible if we end up going to Meracydia, but since new job quests each expansion are no more it's not very likely either.

As for new abilities, as much as I would love to have a complete pantheon of summons and their corresponding abilities by now, I am aware that will not realistically occur prior to 7.0. They could do some things to add depth to Summoner in the coming patches but it will not be anywhere nearly as busy as it used to be. Just like Machinist never went backwards, you cannot expect that of Summoner either.

Here is the best advice I can give to those who are distressed over the loss of old Summoner. Create a support thread and be clear about what concepts you want to see in a new dot caster job. Stick to the topic, and engage with things in a positive and constructive manner. Words only have as much meaning or tone behind them as you see fit to assign. Try to see the glass as half full, not half empty. And if you no longer wish to play as Summoner, fortunately there are 18 other jobs to try out. It's ok to play different classes, goodness knows I did after I decided to not main Summoner last expansion despite it being my first 80.

[mathias-merodach]

Your focus on poison mage ignores everything else that SMN pre-rework had. Yes it had poison to open with, but it had non-elemental through Ruin, Tri-disaster, Deathflare and Ahk Morn. Just like a BLM using Thunder to start dotting before Fire and Blizzard. Summoner continued with elemental attacks: Fire from Ifrit and Phoenix, Wind from Garuda, Earth from Titan.

Those classes are possible; the chances of them cannot be known. I'd ask you to take a moment to think about, and try to understand, in that getting any of those classes and them being dot focused will still NOT be fulfilling for some people. Some, like myself, were drawn to summoner because of what it was, how it played and tied into both the class's progression and lore. Getting any of those classes will still not meet that summoner did.

You are also right that it would be wonderful to have access to more summons. There we once again run into an issue with 14's summoner. One of the HW quests has the WoL and Y'mitra try and get Ramuh. It fails. They discover that, even back in Allag's time, an individual could only attune to 3. That includes someone as gifted as the WoL. There COULD be a way around, but with both SHB and EW going the path of role quests, I don't think it's going to happen since it hasn't been addressed.

In regards to your advice, people can. People have. I went into waiting and seeing after all the time I spent with the class. And it let me down and still is. The stance of telling others to play other jobs is, perhaps not intentionally, dismissive of their feelings and problems. What can be easy for some can be difficult for others. People can have the same experiences and come out completely different. What summoner was happened. People avoided it because of that. Picked it up because of that. For those who did, or grew to, enjoy what it was now see their liked, loved, and/or favorite class nothing like what pulled them to it are left wanting. Even if they do play others, the class is still there. They have to look at it, maybe even choose to play it still, while still having the memories of what made that class fun for them now completely stripped away into something else entirely. Some people will have a hard time with that while others are not because of individuality.

Maybe summoner will never go back to what it was. What' s also true is the only way there's hope for those that have that desire is to speak up. Absolutely it may not happen. I do not think anyone is thinks will just blink back into place by wish. You fail 100% of the attempts you don't make. People who stand for the changes will be disappointed if a revert happens. Those that are on that side, however, should also keep in mind that the feelings they will have should it occur are the -very- same ones that people against them are now having to experience. Respect should be shown for that just as I'm sure they'd want it. Just as I am sure you would want it.

[Rolder50]

What is the goal? The return of poison magic and its interactions? There is not much chance of that ever resurfacing in Summoner again but if you ask politely there is a nonzero chance of Necromancer, Time Mage, or a similar caster being added in 7.0 where they could include those mechanics. Further explorations of its original themes/lore? Possible if we end up going to Meracydia, but since new job quests each expansion are no more it's not very likely either.

I can’t speak for others on here of course, but my own issue with Summoner is that there is no depth, no complexity, no requirement to engage your brain with the current rotation. Ergo, my goal would be to have additional abilities added. More things to weave during the copious amount of room afforded by all the instant casts. More interactions between summons. More things to do and keep track of.

I’m not that particular on what form this depth takes. Would I mind reversion back to 5.1? Nah, I’d be fine with that personally, though I also acknowledge it’s not going to happen. Just give the job something, ANYTHING, that adds a modicum of depth.

[xxmiamorecadenza]

I can’t speak for others on here of course, but my own issue with Summoner is that there is no depth, no complexity, no requirement to engage your brain with the current rotation.

Tbh. This is my perspective. SMN mains went from having a layered job with complexity interwoven in its general structure to...

Well, I leveled SMN to max and it ain't even the least bit difficult for someone who never played the job to pick up. There's barely a learning curve present. I personally view it as partially braindead and its hot bar utterly barren in comparison to other level 90 jobs.