*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Cilia]

Just for the record - the evacuation plan was the contingency, devised thousands of years after the Sundering and binding of Zodiark. The moon was originally nothing but His prison. While you're up on the moon the Loporrits mention this.

[Veloran]

The Ancients, having just suffered the Final Days,

Venat could have told them before the Final Days even began. Learning about it doesn't break her, Emet or Hythlodaeus, and in fact even Hermes still wants to fight for mankind's survival. This idea that they would have suddenly mass suicided themselves is unsubstantiated, and in fact contradicted in the face of Emet-Selch's declaration that even in light of everything it was still the Ancient's will to live.

They occurred concurrently, with Hydaelyn willing to die to make the confrontation plan work. Given Her joy at Her loss, it’s clear what She wished to have happen.

Obviously she wanted you to win, but even at the end of Elpis she talks about making preparations to flee. What I'm saying here is that she clearly did not think that leaving was impossible, as you have insisted.

I don’t believe the WoL thinks 99% of people are terrible.

WoL is one of those people. How much life has WoL taken at the drop of a hat? And this is supposed to be the Ancient's grave sin? Modern humanity indulges in such sacrifice for their own benefit far more flagrantly than them.

To ensure he doesn’t doom all life is a pretty good reason. I don’t think I’d be “manipulating” a serial killer if I lied to them about their target.

Venat never says that telling him would "doom all life". And yes, clearly withholding information from someone to get them to work for you when they otherwise might not is manipulation, someone being a worse person doesn't change that.

Why would he do so if they are the fully reformed souls when he apparently wasn’t going to do so in the past?

The equivalent energy between the population then vs the population now? Back then only Amaurot had survived, and not even most of them, so they had the entire planet to cultivate life on until it was full to bursting before sacrificing part of it to get the others back. Now though, modern humanity has the run of the planet and populates most of the world. In order to get the energy they needed they would either need to kill humanity and allow other life to overtake them and flourish, or to sacrifice humanity itself. This issue would basically be the same whether or not you think it involved souls.

[Cleretic]

Do you have a source or citation on this? Because the dialogue in these fights says otherwise. With Garuda saying something along the lines of “you dare defy me?!”

It's most directly stated by Ramuh. "Thou wouldst forge this world anew? Very well. I will test thy worth."

[KizuyaKatogami]

It's most directly stated by Ramuh. "Thou wouldst forge this world anew? Very well. I will test thy worth."

That’s Ramuh. When did any of the other 4 primals give us their consent? Especially when one of them kind of contradicts the notion they were more than willing to help.

[Alleo]

How is Graha’s plan any different? They didn’t want to accept the grief or tragedy either.They wanted to instead turn to altering and messing with time to bring back the dead, willing to sacrifice millions for it.

Grahas world was a horrible place. It was a world that was still not getting better after 200 years. And after they heard that it was to bring us back, many turned to them to help from all around the world. If they had been the complete minority the project would probably not be finished since the others could have easily stopped them. In the end he traveled back into the past on the first and created a new timeline. So the end result has not even killed anyone.

The third sacrifice would have been imo worse because their world was fine again. They did not need to do that. The problem is that you completely assume that its just animals they planned to sacrifice. (And its not like they were overpopulated either..) That all they wanted was bascially a chicken farm and that its. I doubt that this plan would have gotten so many naysayers to call back Elidibus if it was just simple animals...after all the Ascians later planned to sacrifice the whole source including people with complete souls.

Also if everything goes back to the lifestream and that is just totally fine, why be so mad that seemingly the Ascians did not win? Or that we did not create a second timeline? After all these souls all went back to the lifestream anyway and now can be reborn.

All of this.

It's hypocritical that Venat condemns the ancients for their inability to accept loss and suffering but then gives us the ability to bring back the scions.

It was never certain that we could bring them back. If our WoL had given into the despair of losing them all and never keeping the hope alive then they would not have reached the last place, would not have summoned Emet and Hythlo and would not have understood that it would be the Elpis flowers that will hit Meteion hard. Only then were we able to save our friends who also had to keep fighting the whole time to even stay alive at all. (And they also had to have overcome despair to overcome Meteions challenges)

The whole thing about "being used to grief" or death is very weird for me in the context of the ancients because several of their actions suggest they should know about it quite well but then they apparently don't?

Well we have to remember that Elpis is a facility for testing these new creatures. Of course the people working there probably were in much more danger than someone in Amaurot, which was the only city that survived at the end. (And who according to that one side quest also did nothing to help the other countries when they fell) Yet as you said some still send out familiar to do the more dangerous stuff. Honestly I believe that even though there might be death sometimes, its very rare. After all these creatures seemed kind of docile when we visited them together with Hermes (until the wolves of course).

I think the Ancients as a society never faced true despair before the Final Days. No fear of dieing from starvation because they can create meals themselves, no real calamities like we had to suffer through. Some indiviuals do suffer but seeing for example Hermes they cope with it in a bad way.

An example for a "non-perfect" creature they need to put down would be the Lycaon, a creature that endlessly tried to kill everything around it for no purpose. They had tried different environments for it, placing it with toughened prey animals that would be harder to hunt, wiping it's memory to see if it was just an individual behavioral issue, but no matter what they did the results were always that it would eventually depopulate whatever region it was in to the point that it would starve to death.

Yes and all this work was done because Hermes did not want to give up on them. Abd I am fine if they do it to such creatures who are beyond help. Who are just so aggressive that they would be a danger to the whole system if they are released...but at the same time, why was such a creature even thought off? Why do the Ancient so often create such huge, dangerous beings like Behemoth, Minotaurus and so on. Is it some kind of wish to feel a bit "afraid" while not being in danger themselves because these creatures will just be released somehwere far away from them?

Other than this creature the other one that they wanted to delete just needed a bit more work. Even afterwards they say that it would have just been easier to delete the whole race and start over than showing that one indiviudal how to fly...I really wonder if the wolves were so aggressive because even with their memory wipes the action of being killed was branded on their souls (if they had one). Thus they just got more and more hateful over time.

[OhNooo]

It was never certain that we could bring them back. If our WoL had given into the despair of losing them all and never keeping the hope alive then they would not have reached the last place, would not have summoned Emet and Hythlo and would not have understood that it would be the Elpis flowers that will hit Meteion hard. Only then were we able to save our friends who also had to keep fighting the whole time to even stay alive at all. (And they also had to have overcome despair to overcome Meteions challenges)

I thought the whole point of the expansion is to figure out how to not give into despair even when horrible things happen? The ancients lost almost everyone they cared about and were expected to still move forward and not give into despair. So why is the expectation different for us in this case? Why shouldn't we also be expected to move forward regardless of losing the others if it came down to it? With our plot armor I'm sure they could've figured out a different way to make it through Ultima Thule.

[Cleretic]

I thought the whole point of the expansion is to figure out how to not give into despair even when horrible things happen? The ancients lost almost everyone they cared about and were expected to still move forward and not give into despair. So why is the expectation different for us in this case? Why shouldn't we also be expected to move forward regardless of losing the others if it came down to it? With our plot armor I'm sure they could've figured out a different way to make it through Ultima Thule.

If you revive all the Scions in Ultima Thule, without first finding a way to replace the progress that was made, then you all die pretty much instantly. Because remember that Thancred's sacrifice was to allow everyone the ability to breathe; if you bring them back with no thought to replacement, then all eight of you suffocate in space. Yes, it was absolutely a given that we'd figure out a way how. But it required actual thought, not just Believing Really Hard.

Also, the difference between us and the Ancients is that the Ancients did give into despair, and reached for a quick, easy and flawed solution rather than a more difficult but effective one. If the whole point of the expansion is to not give into despair, the Ancients missed that point.

[OhNooo]

If you revive all the Scions in Ultima Thule, without first finding a way to replace the progress that was made, then you all die pretty much instantly. Because remember that Thancred's sacrifice was to allow everyone the ability to breathe; if you bring them back with no thought to replacement, then all eight of you suffocate in space. Yes, it was absolutely a given that we'd figure out a way how. But it required actual thought, not just Believing Really Hard.

Also, the difference between us and the Ancients is that the Ancients did give into despair, and reached for a quick, easy and flawed solution rather than a more difficult but effective one. If the whole point of the expansion is to not give into despair, the Ancients missed that point.

But I'm arguing against reviving them altogether. If the point is not to give into despair no matter how horrible things become, which is the point the ancients missed, how are we allowed a pass by being given convenient powers that allow us to bring back people who sacrificed themselves to help us make it through a trial? I'm talking about parallels between the ancients not wanting to accept their loved ones were gone and trying to bring them back and us bringing back our friends at the end. We should be expected to still figure out a way to press on without the scions as well. Instead we finish the whole conflict with absolutely nothing lost on our end (and I'm not talking about death necessarily). I'm not a fan of this part of the story where each person's soul creates a way for us to begin with.

But anyway, it's what the writers chose. I guess I just felt underwhelmed with us seeming to all be completely unmovable and strong in the face of literally the end of the world. It would've been cool to see a few of our group start to transform and then we each have to encourage each other to not give in and stop the transformation like Graha did that time in Thavnair.

[Absimiliard]

I absolutely agree that the Scions should have stayed dead. Some of them, at least. Allowing us to walk away from averting the literal end of the universe without any consequences whatsoever is some pretty bad writing, particularly when one considers that sorrow and acceptance are among the key themes for the expansion. At the very least we could've lost Thancred and Urianger, maybe even Alphinaud. Two of those would be virtually inconsequential, but the third would probably carry some weight.

We have yet to experience even the barest thread of the same despair the Ancients bore during their experience with the Final Days. It's unsatisfying to say the least.

As for the Ancients; they succumbed to despair quickly not only because they had never known it, but also because what they experienced was considerably worse than what we did in Endwalker. They got the full Final Days experience, and the only thing that averted it was the last second Zodiark summon. A summon which I will once again note had the capacity to forestall the end indefinitely, meaning there was really no point in everything that came after.

[thegreatonemal]

I absolutely agree that the Scions should have stayed dead. Some of them, at least. Allowing us to walk away from averting the literal end of the universe without any consequences whatsoever is some pretty bad writing, particularly when one considers that sorrow and acceptance are among the key themes for the expansion. At the very least we could've lost Thancred and Urianger, maybe even Alphinaud. Two of those would be virtually inconsequential, but the third would probably carry some weight.

We have yet to experience even the barest thread of the same despair the Ancients bore during their experience with the Final Days. It's unsatisfying to say the least.

As for the Ancients; they succumbed to despair quickly not only because they had never known it, but also because what they experienced was considerably worse than what we did in Endwalker. They got the full Final Days experience, and the only thing that averted it was the last second Zodiark summon. A summon which I will once again note had the capacity to forestall the end indefinitely, meaning there was really no point in everything that came after.

Killing people just to kill them isn't good writing either.