Let's talk Scholar: Changes, Class fantasy and Abilities

[rewd]

Snip

Yes, but that's the point. It's not just "average" players that consider the fun factor, players of any skill level do.

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Dissipation works fine with SCH's systems and is designed to be a downtime skill. Fairy being done doesn't matter (nothing to heal), healing boost can be used on a deployed adlo or succor (no DPS lost because you can't target anything), and Aetherflow can be spent on ED. With proper timing, you can wait until the fairy is back to use ED and gain gauge.
This is a niche scenario, so sometimes you have to use the skill to heal or to DPS. As a healing tool, it shouldn't matter much that it only boosts healing magic. People spent pages saying how using an Aetherflow to heal is such a horrendous act that would cause the Final Days, so I suppose they still wouldn't use them, outside of a possible Recitation use. Not to mention it would still be a lacking healing tool as the only skill you could use for AoE healing would be Expedient, which has a CD.

I'll echo what other people say: Dissipation is overall ok and an interesting ability. I'd like for it to become more rewarding DPS-wise, though.

Regarding player count: we don't need to kill that argument because it's an argument that wasn't made. When you read this:

Even if SCH was overbuffed people would prefer playing SGE simply because it feels better to play

it's not a bad idea to go and see data to check the veracity of this claim. Not to mention how weird it is to think that our own preferences take precedence over other people's ("I think SGE feels better, so people must think SGE feels better"). As Halfgeeek correctly said, people's doom and gloom claims don't seem to have translated to reality, as we don't have numbers and data to back them up.

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High player count doesn't mean that the job is fine, perfect and that it doesn't need some work on it. Conversely, low player count doesn't mean the job is in dire need of help/rework. This is pretty hilarious to state, as people loved to bring up the fact that SCH was apparently the least played job in ShB and that was a clear sign that the job needs a total rework. Player count is an useful metric and something devs consider, but you shouldn't draw too many conclusion from it, or at least you should be able to interpret the data you are seeing.

WHM's high player count means that it's a iconic job with an aesthetic and simplicity people enjoy. This doesn't exclude a rework, but it should tell you that a possible rework should aim to preserve these factors. NIN's low player count (lowest one!) should worry the devs (is RPR cannibalizing NIN's playerbase? Were the NIN changes problematic?). BLM being the least played caster by a wide margin shouldn't worry the devs, however. The job has been playing more or less the same for years and wasn't changed much in EW, it has found its audience that is sticking with it.

(1/2)

[rewd]

It's good that we have Sage for people that enjoy SCH's core gameplay loop but don't like having a pet, Dissipation or risky gameplay that allows the player to fail and being punished. SGE represents a job that is easier and safer to play, which is nice because people have options. SCH can further develop its identity and get fixes and not a total overhaul, so it can keep the individuality it still has. Similarly, it's nice that we have AST for those who like to play with RNG. Having more options is nice, not something we should fear or reject.

If a job isn't for you, too bad. We can't like everything, at the end of the day.

(2/2).

[WaxSw]

Yes, but that's the point. It's not just "average" players that consider the fun factor, players of any skill level do.

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Dissipation works fine with SCH's systems and is designed to be a downtime skill. Fairy being done doesn't matter (nothing to heal), healing boost can be used on a deployed adlo or succor (no DPS lost because you can't target anything), and Aetherflow can be spent on ED. With proper timing, you can wait until the fairy is back to use ED and gain gauge.
This is a niche scenario, so sometimes you have to use the skill to heal or to DPS. As a healing tool, it shouldn't matter much that it only boosts healing magic. People spent pages saying how using an Aetherflow to heal is such a horrendous act that would cause the Final Days, so I suppose they still wouldn't use them, outside of a possible Recitation use. Not to mention it would still be a lacking healing tool as the only skill you could use for AoE healing would be Expedient, which has a CD.

Highly disagree on this, Dissipation is a dps gain that needs a target and holding it means you risk drifting aetherflow you gain nothing waiting for a downtime aside getting less damage out of it, skills that benefit from downtime like meditation or soulsow have all of them the trait of giving resources not tied to a time dependant cooldown so they can be stored for as long as the downtime is without problem, Dissipation doesnt share said trait, as such is why its design is deeply flawed. The healing boost is meaningless because if its uptime you will try to avoid using gcds, the ED charges could be nice to heal but until you remember that the strong Sch aetherflow heals have all a cooldown of at least 30s meaning that if given the case that you need the aetherflow to heal either a) they are already on cd because you already used them or b) damage comes later on so you just used all your AE charges before Dissipation on ED and you're using Dissipation's charges as you would normally use the AE charges to heal, meaning its effectively being just a 300 dps gain once again
Dissipation due ot its design works only properly works as a dps cd, a 300 potency cooldown whose healing side its kinda meaningless in almost all the content

I agree on what you said about player count but its important in Sch to note 2 things, during social media polls, yes not owned by SE but outside sources like reddit (which SE have seen from time to time) Sch have been among the lowest job in satisfaction of its playerbase and that there has been 2 years of non stop complains about the design of healers as a whole and Sch in particular, if they listen feedback as much as they say they should take that into acount even if Sch playerbase is high, especially when the consensus of almost anyone who mained the job is that Sch from Shb onwards got gutted hard and became boring.

SCH can further develop its identity and get fixes and not a total overhaul, so it can keep the individuality it still has. Similarly, it's nice that we have AST for those who like to play with RNG. Having more options is nice, not something we should fear or reject.

The problem here is that Sch has already lost its identity almost entirely, pet got fixes but we can't target embrace and lost selene's toolkit, the "risky" gameplay is not big and the punishment of aetherflow feels simply bad in a landscape where healers have loads of free ogcds, we lost our niche as dot focused healer and the optimizations around weaving are lost too, Sch needs an overhaul because its just a husk of its former self thats why this is kinda funny:

If a job isn't for you, too bad. We can't like everything, at the end of the day.

Because what Sch changes post Shb acomplish is making a Sch for people who don't like Sch we got the stupid homogenization in healers precisely because SE doesnt seem to like the idea that a job may be liked by some and dont click with others

[RinaShinomiya]

If a job isn't for you, too bad. We can't like everything, at the end of the day.

It's always easy to say X is just not for you but Sage is literally the same job but without the clunky stuff. Like legit maybe 8 buttons are different (not counting pepsis which is just E-Tactics in reverse or Physis which is just Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination in 1 button).

Scholar was awesome to play in 4.x. Didn't get to play much of it but what i did i liked a lot. I hated what they did to the job in 5.0 so much and while 6.0 is the same iteration but better, it's kit still feels disjointed because they never overhauled it to feel complete without the Arcanist buttons. If dissipation being a downtime button is really the best use you can come up with then i don't know what to tell you. Reducing it to Largesse with downsides isn't exactly exciting class design and using it for DPS still gives you less DPS gain than using PoM on WHM, which comes with 0 downsides.

[Halfgeeek]

It isn't a competition problem it's a "I need to work harder for no reason" problem.

This is a poor argument given that other roles have jobs that differ greatly in complexity, APM, double-weave requirements etc. In the end they all end up similar DPS output yet some have to work much harder than others. Tanks have this too, why play GNB which has ridiculous 2-weave (on top of boss positioning & defensive requirements) and fast button mashing play when you can play WAR that's slower while being similar DPS, and WAR has even more sustain?

It's these differences that allow players with different subjective likes & dislikes to pick one job over another to main.

For you and some, SCH & SGE are similar and you think SGE lacks the clunk, fine. I disagree. I find SCH more interesting, thematically & gameplay.

The AF system, the fact SCH has to choose between healing or dmg. Dissipation, you have to choose between Fairy or 3 AF stacks. These thought requiring abilities is why I prefer it over SGE which to me, is brain dead.

[Kabzy]

...For you and some, SCH & SGE are similar and you think SGE lacks the clunk, fine. I disagree. I find SCH more interesting, thematically & gameplay.

The AF system, the fact SCH has to choose between healing or dmg. Dissipation, you have to choose between Fairy or 3 AF stacks. These thought requiring abilities is why I prefer it over SGE which to me, is brain dead.

I agree with this in a theoretical sense, but I'd argue the actual game design makes it a little moot. Back in coils, SCH would have to shield and use Virus or else a party could actually wipe. There is literally 0 reason to be proactive in this game now. At least I've not come across any similar situations in any of the 5.x raids. I can't imagine it'll be much different in the new savages. Therefore, I'd consider the AF system more like a pseudo-choice. It's not really that less brain dead in my opinion. But to each their own!

[RinaShinomiya]

Tanks have this too, why play GNB which has ridiculous 2-weave (on top of boss positioning & defensive requirements) and fast button mashing play when you can play WAR that's slower while being similar DPS, and WAR has even more sustain?

Because tanks actually have different DPS rotations and play different despite being the same role. Healers are nearly identical in their DPS kits and largely similar in their healing kits, especially when compared in the same category of healers.

[Halfgeeek]

Because tanks actually have different DPS rotations and play different despite being the same role. Healers are nearly identical in their DPS kits and largely similar in their healing kits, especially when compared in the same category of healers.

And yet there is a large enough difference for the vast majority to pivot towards WHM, and despite similarities between SGE & SCH, there's enough difference there where people like me prefer SCH, while others prefer SGE.

In the grand scheme of SCH vs SGE, there's only a handful of differences. Fairy, AF & Dissipation being some of those..

Reminds me of the WAR onslaught changes that players asked for. Now it's basically the same as other tanks gap closer. :/

[rewd]

Because tanks actually have different DPS rotations and play different despite being the same role. Healers are nearly identical in their DPS kits and largely similar in their healing kits, especially when compared in the same category of healers.

This is a weird take, as tanks arguably have it worse than healers. Tanks have DPS rotations, sure, but at closer inspection you'll notice how similar they fundamentally are (every tank having a 123 combo, 3 tanks having their IR + Fell Cleave spam etc.). Not to mention that a tank's main responsibility, mitigation, is extremely homogenized and overall quite boring. It's very telling that when a new player (or someone new to tanking) asks for the difference between tanks most of the answers focus on their [watered down] DPS rotations.

Healers have the luxury of being allowed to have fun when content is new and/or the party is bad. Tanks don't have the same luxury and you can take the current EXs as an example.
EX1 has a boss you can't move, so the only thing you have to do is deal with the tankbuster (=use your overpowered short mit cooldown). We even have visual markers for single and dual tankbusters so tanks don't even have to guess what is a tankbuster and what is a raidwide and memorize them, as the game spells it out for you.

While I will concede that SCH and SGE feel largely similar (which has been my main complaint with SGE), it's frankly quite weird to claim that WHM and AST feel the same. At level 50, sure (but this applies to tanks and even DPS), but after level 50?
There are only so many ways to get HP bars to go up but WHM, AST and SCH all feel fairly different. The problem is elsewhere when it comes to healing.

[RinaShinomiya]

This is a weird take, as tanks arguably have it worse than healers. Tanks have DPS rotations, sure, but at closer inspection you'll notice how similar they fundamentally are (every tank having a 123 combo, 3 tanks having their IR + Fell Cleave spam etc.). Not to mention that a tank's main responsibility, mitigation, is extremely homogenized and overall quite boring. It's very telling that when a new player (or someone new to tanking) asks for the difference between tanks most of the answers focus on their [watered down] DPS rotations.

I'm aware, I even said so in another thread myself and yet despite these similarities you cant just say that there are effectively only 2 tanks each having 2 flavors. DRK and WAR are probably the most similar since the DRK overhaul in 5.0 but the similarities only have 1-2-3 combo, a 1-2 aoe combo, a beast gauge with fell cleave and the few mitigation buttons everything else is different. Warrior doesn't have a summonable Avatar DoT, Warrior needs to go through a 1-2-4 combo to keep up their damage buff while DRK just weaves, WAR doesn't have Mana Management, Salted Earth, TBN and WAR's Invul skill doesn't suck. Instead WAR's toolkit is tailored to spam Fell cleave as much as humanly possible, which DRK doesn't focus as much on. Despite the obvious similarities they don't play similar at all especially when you compare it to PLD cycling through physical and magical rotations or GNB which is just combo attack galore. Ill give you that AST and WHM play more differently but SCH and SGE are almost identical jobs.