Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

[CoolCat]

The brightness needs to be tone down. Like OP I can't see crap sometimes with the lightshow going on.

[Espon]

I like it, at least I'm summoning things more. Maybe my reactions are slow but I prefer simpler jobs that I don't have to concentrate too hard playing so that I can focus more on the fights.

I can see why people are upset, though. They took one of the most complex jobs to play and made it into one of the easiest. Quite the contrast from one expansion to the next if it was one of your mains.

I do wish Carbuncle would do something, though, like auto-attack. Instead it just sits there, staring at you... then it disappears for a few seconds when you summon something else and then comes back, only to continue staring at you.

[ThorneDynasty]

There's this trend of deflecting any and all criticism of new Summoner by redirecting to complaining about old Summoner. Which when you look past the smokescreen contains zero reasoning why the new Summoner is good.

[MaelleRiou]

Why are people setting this up like the only options are dumbed down lobotomized baboon rotation with summons vs. complex rotation without summons?

There's literally nothing about the big summons that requires having a brain dead rotation. "It feels like a summoner now" is not in any way, shape, or form a counter argument to people complaining about the simplicity of it.

"Not every DPS needs to be complex." Ok, well, not every DPS needs to be simplistic either, which is what all 3 caster DPS are right now. Red mage somehow coming out in Endwalker as the most complex of the casters is weird considering it's intended purpose was to be the easier caster. That's where we are right now, if you want to play a caster your most complex choice is red mage.

[Mezzoforte]

Why are people setting this up like the only options are dumbed down lobotomized baboon rotation with summons vs. complex rotation without summons?

There's literally nothing about the big summons that requires having a brain dead rotation. "It feels like a summoner now" is not in any way, shape, or form a counter argument to people complaining about the simplicity of it.

"Not every DPS needs to be complex." Ok, well, not every DPS needs to be simplistic either, which is what all 3 caster DPS are right now. Red mage somehow coming out in Endwalker as the most complex of the casters is weird considering it's intended purpose was to be the easier caster. That's where we are right now, if you want to play a caster your most complex choice is red mage.

As older summoners used to say. There are plenty of other classes to try.

[aveyond-dreams]

If "complex" means dot juggling and pets that don't obey commands, I think me and the majority of people are going to side with "simple." Some would say old Summoner wasn't even complex, it's just bad design. And for some reason people really feel proud of being able to play around bad designs. So far I haven't had any issues with pet ghosting, just slightly annoyed when the egis have to run to the target to do their attacks at lower levels, which is resolved by just moving in closer.

Red Mage and Black Mage aren't all that complex either, they just move less. Calling either of those jobs the same kind of "complex" as old Summoner is questionable. It's pretty clear what you're supposed to be doing on both of those classes and it has been since the day they were introduced. Pretty good flow throughout each expansion and not many glitches to work around. Summoner on the other hand has been all over the place with its problems that don't need repeating.

In any case this thread is one entertaining read. A pity that the energy spent here could have been used in discussions for the Necromancer/Warlock/Time Mage of some peoples dreams, oh well.

[dinnertime]

When I mean complex, I mean the amount of management and thought SMN gameplay used to have.

Literally nobody is saying that pets ghosting actions made the job complex. It's been the *biggest* issue of the job for a long time. I'd even argue that removing pets altogether has been the best decision they've made for the job in a long time, but of course the people who enjoyed the pet aspect would be upset.

And DoT "juggling" was never an issue at a technical standpoint. If you actually played the job before, you'd know that keeping up DoTs became extremely easy and was barely part of your repertoire within each expansion. The people who had a problem with DoTs are always the ones who compare the job to the WoW Warlock or call it a Poison Mage, but if the DoTs were Primal-themed I'm sure these people won't even say anything.

DoTs provided interesting gameplay because it required some management. Making sure they're always up, setting them up for a Bane or a Fester. Another good example is back when SMN can manipulate its Aetherflow, Dreadwyrm Trance and Bahamut CDs so they can actually hold them and not lose DPS which provided a LOT of flexibility, rewarding you for playing smarter. The old Aetherflow where you set up DoTs, spend your Aetherflow stacks to build up into Bahamut. Then you have the aspect of managing your Ruin IV and Egi Assault stacks, etc. That's what SMN now is really missing. Management.

It's very much possible to add management back to the new SMN that'll make most people satisfied. They don't even need to bring back DoTs or anything, but being more creative with what we already have now.

[aveyond-dreams]

Except the problem is that class was originally built off Warlock. Its job description still alludes to "demons" to this day. It's pretty clear what they tried (and ultimately failed) to accomplish.

None of the mechanics you describe above scratch the itch that being able to summon one primal after another do. The sacrifice was absolutely worth it. Primal dots may have been able to be accepted by the community at one point, but not at the cost of what we eventually got. Good riddance to ruin stacking and all that "management." Summoner was my first 80 back in Shb and was my first 90 in EW and the difference could not be greater.

I can't think of any class that had the same amount of busywork as SMN used to, not even Red Mage or Black Mage have that much to stay on top of. Instead of staring at my hotbars I get to actually react and move on the fly to whatever's going on in the fight. Regardless we'll eventually get more abilities in the next expansions to come that will add on more stuff to do so instead of continuing to fantasize about dots and aetherflow stacking, maybe take these ideas to a new job that can fully embrace that gameplay instead of dragging Summoner backwards.

[dinnertime]

You can literally design SMN to have the micro-managing aspect while having Summons be the main focus of the job, but I guess that wasn't obvious enough from my post. You act like they can't co-exist with each other but then again it's you I'm talking to.

6.0 SMN is just a hollow flashy animation spectacle with nothing rewarding about it gameplay-wise, but if you enjoy that then good for you.

[Madoka]

aveyond has learned that being the loudest in the room gets results after SMN's lobotomy so they'll keep it up in every SMN thread. Best to ignore them.

It's very unlikely that we'll see significant changes in 6.1, but 5.1 did do a fair bit for the SMN rotation so I'm holding out hope. Maybe they had some scrapped ideas that will fit in, or some good ideas. Because they killed the pets but we're still somehow at the mercy of carbuncle for our party buff and new shield.