Jobs and Class, I am nervous now.

[Jinrya-Geki]

I promise it won't be anything bad.

[Reaujien]

Can I ask why?

I find it unfair that a class with armor, can take more hits, and isn't held back by Mana can outdamage the class that has none of those. Kinda the whole risk/reward deal.

You don't think there's risk in being melee (e.g., jobs that wear heavy-ish armor) - in restricting yourself to only being able to do damage in close proximity? A melee player could say the same thing: That they find it unfair that mages can pump damage, CC, and debuffs all while being at a safe distance to avoid almost all damage period. This whole "risk/reward" you speak of doesn't just apply to mages; there's risk in melee as well, but just different kinds and different flavors.

Melee have to be in proximity to almost all forms of damage that mobs can spew out, otherwise they won't be able to do any damage at all. Take for example the Kirin fight in XI - if a melee gets/remains to close they're going to get fayced by his huge AoE spell (think it was Aeroga IV - I forget). Perhaps there are better examples, but I think that's simple enough to get the gist. So there's a risk involved just to be able to whip out some WSs on him. Mages on the other hand can remain at a safe distance at all times all while being able to do burst damage at whatever pace they choose (for the most part). Also, as mages have to manage their MP, melee have to manage their TP and use it just as accordingly as mages use their MP pool.

But regardless, I could go on an on about the trade offs between melee vs. mages, but when it all boils down it's all about what can effectively damage the mob during fights. Some fights the mob is too dangerous for anyone to stay at close proximity (and at times, even the tank), and so this is perhaps when mages (and ranged, such as Archers/Rangers/etc.) shine; whereas other fights the mob is so resistant to magic that the only thing that'll really damage it is a blunt weapon across its fayce.

And I'm surprised you think that - honestly; that mages by virtue of being "mages" should somehow always... *magically* (pun intended)... be top DD on average regardless of the fight. I mean, XI had loads of mobs that were highly resistant to magic, to the point where melee were forced to SC just so the mages could get a bump in accuracy and damage so they were sitting there like useless spots in the alliance (which, IMO, was great tactics - to have BLM burst on SC w/e possible).

That one job should always be top overall regardless of the situation is tantamount to suggesting that this game (or any FF game) should only consist of a tank, a healer, and a party of DD consisting only of JOB-X; it's foolishly audacious.

[Riaayo]

That movement while casting video has made me very extremely nervous on how jobs are supposed to improve party play, or anything else at that matter. After watching it and noticing a few things it makes me wonder... how?

The job we see attacking the kobolds is a black mage. If you look at the level bar in the video it's a purple comet (color blind it may be blue). If you were a thaumaturge it would be the flaming torch symbol.

The second thing I noticed is he used spells after showing that they can be canceled while moving. The damage he displayed as a black mage... is what bothers me the most... it was the same damage amount I can do to them now. The other thing was the mp cost of the spells, if you look hard enough it's still exactly the same amount. How does Black Mage improve from Thaumaturge?

Ancient magic spells, 15 minute recasts. Freeze seems to be the only good one. If Convert generates tons of hate it's better to use freeze, than burst. Burst you might end up kill yourself. Flare... fire aoe with a DoT effect. Great job, make sleepga useless, and wipe your whole party. Can't tell you how many times I have heard/seen a dynamis wipe when someone used poisonga II.

Jobs are supposed to bring roles, White Mage is the healer, and Black Mage the elemental damage dealer. If jobs don't add to damage, or cut mp cost to certain spells. Situationly, White Mage can out damage a black mage, and I am sorry, gonna make alot of people made with this, this should ONLY happen at one time, and only one time. When you fight the Undead. The fact that Cjn can out damage Thm in places like Zahar'ak, I can live with that I guess, because we aren't in roles yet. Though when we are Black mage/ White mage roles, my damage should almost always, 99.9% of the time outdamage white mage.

We have two options from Reinhart's thread that we either only get to cross -class either 5 abilities, or can only cross-class abilities from the classes that the job requires. Pugilist for Black Mage is a seriously dumb decision. Some people in another thread said Blind side can be useful for black mage. It isn't, it clearly states it doesn't work with spells. If we can only cross class for the two classes, second wind is useless. Go ahead and smack Ifrit or moogles and see how fast you lose more hp trying to heal yourself without invigorate.

If you can choose 5 abilities from any class, that would be slightly better but not much. As Blm I guess I would have Invigorate, Second Wind, Sentinel, Chameleon, raise. Look what I don't have now, cure or stoneskin. So I have to make even more sure in fights like Ifrit I don't get caught in an eruption. Cause I can't cure myself constantly. Even after Hellfire I will have low Hp since I didn't have Stoneskin, Sanguine Rites, with Sentinel.

So how do jobs help with their roles when they gimp your abilities, give no damage increase, no mp cut to certain spells.

I am just really also bothered by how no one else seems to care/notice. Everyone was upset with how much spells cost when the patch 1.20 came out. And We see there has been nothing done about it in that video with the black mage. With only 4 days left before the patch, how can it be drastically changed to prove me wrong? Why be a job, when a class can do it the same, and have more freedom with cross class?

Firstly I would like to point out you mention complaining about spell cost in 1.20 but then say Black Mage is no better than Thm, despite having convert which will effectively let a thm oom and instantly refill, threat generation aside. You might as well have halved the mp cost of blms spells for your entire first 2 bars of mp.

Secondly, you say Flare is useless because it is an AoE DoT simply because of Sleepga. To be honest, I'm disgusted to see Sleepga return to the game as it is a complete boring crutch of a CC tool and takes almost no thought strategy or planning to use against a multitude of mobs.

Burst's long CD does bother me but I am going to assume Convert's CD is very similar, and Burst is meant to be used after Convert to maximize damage.

You state it's stupid for Blm to be able to use Second Wind, but I can easily whack Ifrit in phase 1 to build my TP up even without Invigorate, and you have access to Quelling Strike off Archer which will reduce the threat off your nuke and give you some TP.


This community is going to have to buck up and start thinking outside of the heavily crutched box it's been use to in this game for a while. You won't have 8 emergency "oops" battle rez's anymore. You won't have every class with cure and second wind on their bar. You won't have Paladins with Sanguine Rite, or for that matter Black Mages than can AoE it onto the tank. And you know what? That makes the game harder and more fun, something people keep complaining they want.

People need to realize the day of "endure through the damage" is coming to an end and the days of "avoid the damage" have arrived. If you are dieing to damage, you need to stop standing in things, taking hate, standing still and not kiting a moogle, etc. As a DD you don't need to be healing yourself all the time, and if you're taking damage from anything other than an arena-wide AoE, you likely have no excuse other than you messed up.

[Dzian]

Little Concerned but will have to wait and see how it all pans out.

my concerns are priamrily AF will be a piece of cake to get thus killing the disciples of the hand off pretty much entirely.

and that classes will be frowned upon for group stuff. i dont want to see my conjurer pressured into a whm job if i can heal just as well on conjurer and bam out some nukes at the same time

and i like archer for dd i dont much care for support in any form so i have no real interest in bard. i see my archer as a ranger style pure dd machine. i dont want to see a situation where i cant go to this dungeon or that dungeon unless my archer is a bard or my conj is a whm. thus getting pressured into specific roles much as jobs did in xi

[Akumu]

This community is going to have to buck up and start thinking outside of the heavily crutched box it's been use to in this game for a while. You won't have 8 emergency "oops" battle rez's anymore. You won't have every class with cure and second wind on their bar. You won't have Paladins with Sanguine Rite, or for that matter Black Mages than can AoE it onto the tank. And you know what? That makes the game harder and more fun, something people keep complaining they want.

People need to realize the day of "endure through the damage" is coming to an end and the days of "avoid the damage" have arrived. If you are dieing to damage, you need to stop standing in things, taking hate, standing still and not kiting a moogle, etc. As a DD you don't need to be healing yourself all the time, and if you're taking damage from anything other than an arena-wide AoE, you likely have no excuse other than you messed up.

The community has been handicapped for a long time now so the closer we are to losing our crutches the more the change is making people nervous.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Firstly I would like to point out you mention complaining about spell cost in 1.20 but then say Black Mage is no better than Thm, despite having convert which will effectively let a thm oom and instantly refill, threat generation aside. You might as well have halved the mp cost of blms spells for your entire first 2 bars of mp.

Secondly, you say Flare is useless because it is an AoE DoT simply because of Sleepga. To be honest, I'm disgusted to see Sleepga return to the game as it is a complete boring crutch of a CC tool and takes almost no thought strategy or planning to use against a multitude of mobs.

Burst's long CD does bother me but I am going to assume Convert's CD is very similar, and Burst is meant to be used after Convert to maximize damage.

You state it's stupid for Blm to be able to use Second Wind, but I can easily whack Ifrit in phase 1 to build my TP up even without Invigorate, and you have access to Quelling Strike off Archer which will reduce the threat off your nuke and give you some TP.


This community is going to have to buck up and start thinking outside of the heavily crutched box it's been use to in this game for a while. You won't have 8 emergency "oops" battle rez's anymore. You won't have every class with cure and second wind on their bar. You won't have Paladins with Sanguine Rite, or for that matter Black Mages than can AoE it onto the tank. And you know what? That makes the game harder and more fun, something people keep complaining they want.

People need to realize the day of "endure through the damage" is coming to an end and the days of "avoid the damage" have arrived. If you are dieing to damage, you need to stop standing in things, taking hate, standing still and not kiting a moogle, etc. As a DD you don't need to be healing yourself all the time, and if you're taking damage from anything other than an arena-wide AoE, you likely have no excuse other than you messed up.

Convert is nothing. It's the exaltation we should have kept. My complaint is that from the video that being Black Mage adds no damage to spell damage. I am not sure of how long the convert cooldown will be, if it's 10 minutes then all we got is a gimped version exaltation back. How is it gimped you might ask, uh you give up health to get 75% of you mp, where exaltation was the same amount without HP loss.

If convert does generate massive hate like it did in FFXI, using burst after, you are probably going to die. Alosi if Ancient magic spells share the same timer as before, then why use burst at all!? Why use it when you can convert then use freeze and lose enmity, and do more damage over time. Of course if convert doesn't generate any hate hen yes, burst would be more useful.


Yes, I didn't know quelling strike is useful for spells to generate tp. I thought if you couldn't use invigorate what good is going up to ifrit and smacking him for tp. Let's say for worst case scenario Ifrits at 25% health left, and you get caught by 1 eruption and live and have no tp for second wind. Healer has to stay focused on the tank, and you didn't have quelling strike/invigorate? But since quelling does work, that argue is out the window.

[Jinrya-Geki]

You don't think there's risk in being melee (e.g., jobs that wear heavy-ish armor) - in restricting yourself to only being able to do damage in close proximity? A melee player could say the same thing: That they find it unfair that mages can pump damage, CC, and debuffs all while being at a safe distance to avoid almost all damage period. This whole "risk/reward" you speak of doesn't just apply to mages; there's risk in melee as well, but just different kinds and different flavors.

Melee have to be in proximity to almost all forms of damage that mobs can spew out, otherwise they won't be able to do any damage at all. Take for example the Kirin fight in XI - if a melee gets/remains to close they're going to get fayced by his huge AoE spell (think it was Aeroga IV - I forget). Perhaps there are better examples, but I think that's simple enough to get the gist. So there's a risk involved just to be able to whip out some WSs on him. Mages on the other hand can remain at a safe distance at all times all while being able to do burst damage at whatever pace they choose (for the most part). Also, as mages have to manage their MP, melee have to manage their TP and use it just as accordingly as mages use their MP pool.

But regardless, I could go on an on about the trade offs between melee vs. mages, but when it all boils down it's all about what can effectively damage the mob during fights. Some fights the mob is too dangerous for anyone to stay at close proximity (and at times, even the tank), and so this is perhaps when mages (and ranged, such as Archers/Rangers/etc.) shine; whereas other fights the mob is so resistant to magic that the only thing that'll really damage it is a blunt weapon across its fayce.

And I'm surprised you think that - honestly; that mages by virtue of being "mages" should somehow always... *magically* (pun intended)... be top DD on average regardless of the fight. I mean, XI had loads of mobs that were highly resistant to magic, to the point where melee were forced to SC just so the mages could get a bump in accuracy and damage so they were sitting there like useless spots in the alliance (which, IMO, was great tactics - to have BLM burst on SC w/e possible).

That one job should always be top overall regardless of the situation is tantamount to suggesting that this game (or any FF game) should only consist of a tank, a healer, and a party of DD consisting only of JOB-X; it's foolishly audacious.

And this whole statement you made is the reason why we have class-stacking, this is what happens when developers do it another way.


Wizards were the power-house of the casters, every other caster were pet classes, except alchemist. It had really good buffs and had potion (ammo) and really good debuffs. The petters could steal do good damage, not as high as wizards, but you could have the pet tank one mob while the master can attack another. Clerics were hysterically awesome at killing undeads, which it had several raid areas with undead.

Sir, look up Everquest Online Adventures for the ps2. Yes the game is very old, but it will show you how well class balance was in that game. Every single class was useful, you could take any class anywhere on a raid.

You can't have two casters, one being a healer with heavy armor that can do roughly the same damage as the one who is only a damage dealer with cloth armor and less health. Or melees, which positioned correctly have just as little threat to some enemies as casters to being hit. Lancers against Ifrit for example, or archers to moogles. Anyone who times the self-explosions or learns a mobs pattern can easily avoid the damage.

When crap hits the fans let's say and the paladin dies. The mob will go after whoever does the most damage. Who is more likely to live long enough for one healer to spam heal while the other revives the tank? Sure as hell won't be Black mage/thaumaturge with it's low defense and hp. Look at mister melee warrior who can dps and possibly tank taking several hits not dying in 1 to 2 hits.

Or Mr. Pugilist/Monk who can evade some hits while the tank is getting back up.

I am sure Lancer can do it to if someone tried hard enough.

No class that can take a hit should ever exceed the one that can't take the hit. It's called Balance.

[Shiggysonson]

Convert is nothing. It's the exaltation we should have kept. My complaint is that from the video that being Black Mage adds no damage to spell damage. I am not sure of how long the convert cooldown will be, if it's 10 minutes then all we got is a gimped version exaltation back. How is it gimped you might ask, uh you give up health to get 75% of you mp, where exaltation was the same amount without HP loss.

If convert does generate massive hate like it did in FFXI, using burst after, you are probably going to die. Alosi if Ancient magic spells share the same timer as before, then why use burst at all!? Why use it when you can convert then use freeze and lose enmity, and do more damage over time. Of course if convert doesn't generate any hate hen yes, burst would be more useful.


Yes, I didn't know quelling strike is useful for spells to generate tp. I thought if you couldn't use invigorate what good is going up to ifrit and smacking him for tp. Let's say for worst case scenario Ifrits at 25% health left, and you get caught by 1 eruption and live and have no tp for second wind. Healer has to stay focused on the tank, and you didn't have quelling strike/invigorate? But since quelling does work, that argue is out the window.

Did you check the spells whm gets? Regen will be great for situations like the one you mentioned. Also, we'll have bards that act as support in the group so they can throw small cures when necessary to people that mess up. Paladins also get an ability that puts a heal over time on all party members in range when a heal is casted on the paladin. This means you don't have to worry about healing yourself. Just focus on DDing and avoiding mechanics.

I don't remember convert pulling too much hate besides the heal you had to put on yourself. I quit during ToAU so if they changed it after that then that sucks. If you are referring to the heal hate, you can just do necrogenesis > quelling strike > convert > burst for damage and a big heal on yourself. Obviously you have to watch your hate, but i mean it's about the same hate as any regular nuke.

And yea... just because blms don't do more damage per spell than thm doesn't mean they don't do more damage total.

[Reaujien]

And this whole statement you made is the reason why we have class-stacking, this is what happens when developers do it another way.


Wizards were the power-house of the casters, every other caster were pet classes, except alchemist. It had really good buffs and had potion (ammo) and really good debuffs. The petters could steal do good damage, not as high as wizards, but you could have the pet tank one mob while the master can attack another. Clerics were hysterically awesome at killing undeads, which it had several raid areas with undead.

Sir, look up Everquest Online Adventures for the ps2. Yes the game is very old, but it will show you how well class balance was in that game. Every single class was useful, you could take any class anywhere on a raid.

You can't have two casters, one being a healer with heavy armor that can do roughly the same damage as the one who is only a damage dealer with cloth armor and less health. Or melees, which positioned correctly have just as little threat to some enemies as casters to being hit. Lancers against Ifrit for example, or archers to moogles. Anyone who times the self-explosions or learns a mobs pattern can easily avoid the damage.

When crap hits the fans let's say and the paladin dies. The mob will go after whoever does the most damage. Who is more likely to live long enough for one healer to spam heal while the other revives the tank? Sure as hell won't be Black mage/thaumaturge with it's low defense and hp. Look at mister melee warrior who can dps and possibly tank taking several hits not dying in 1 to 2 hits.

Or Mr. Pugilist/Monk who can evade some hits while the tank is getting back up.

I am sure Lancer can do it to if someone tried hard enough.

No class that can take a hit should ever exceed the one that can't take the hit. It's called Balance.

You're right, we're all wrong.

FFXIV needs to be more like some non-FF PS2 game.

All is well. Then end.


(For the inept, this is the definition of sarcasm...)

[Jinrya-Geki]

You're right, we're all wrong.

FFXIV needs to be more like some non-FF PS2 game.

All is well. Then end.

It needs battles that can be fun, and not be so class-stack heavy.

It had a fight where you have to position behind a rock to avoid an environmental damage called lava splash and to avoid a dragons fire breath damage. That was cool, this game tries to do and it fails miserably at it.

Where as I see pugs or archer get the shaft on the ifrit fight.