Jobs and Class, I am nervous now.

[Reaujien]

Can I ask why?

I find it unfair that a class with armor, can take more hits, and isn't held back by Mana can outdamage the class that has none of those. Kinda the whole risk/reward deal.

You don't think there's risk in being melee (e.g., jobs that wear heavy-ish armor) - in restricting yourself to only being able to do damage in close proximity? A melee player could say the same thing: That they find it unfair that mages can pump damage, CC, and debuffs all while being at a safe distance to avoid almost all damage period. This whole "risk/reward" you speak of doesn't just apply to mages; there's risk in melee as well, but just different kinds and different flavors.

Melee have to be in proximity to almost all forms of damage that mobs can spew out, otherwise they won't be able to do any damage at all. Take for example the Kirin fight in XI - if a melee gets/remains to close they're going to get fayced by his huge AoE spell (think it was Aeroga IV - I forget). Perhaps there are better examples, but I think that's simple enough to get the gist. So there's a risk involved just to be able to whip out some WSs on him. Mages on the other hand can remain at a safe distance at all times all while being able to do burst damage at whatever pace they choose (for the most part). Also, as mages have to manage their MP, melee have to manage their TP and use it just as accordingly as mages use their MP pool.

But regardless, I could go on an on about the trade offs between melee vs. mages, but when it all boils down it's all about what can effectively damage the mob during fights. Some fights the mob is too dangerous for anyone to stay at close proximity (and at times, even the tank), and so this is perhaps when mages (and ranged, such as Archers/Rangers/etc.) shine; whereas other fights the mob is so resistant to magic that the only thing that'll really damage it is a blunt weapon across its fayce.

And I'm surprised you think that - honestly; that mages by virtue of being "mages" should somehow always... *magically* (pun intended)... be top DD on average regardless of the fight. I mean, XI had loads of mobs that were highly resistant to magic, to the point where melee were forced to SC just so the mages could get a bump in accuracy and damage so they were sitting there like useless spots in the alliance (which, IMO, was great tactics - to have BLM burst on SC w/e possible).

That one job should always be top overall regardless of the situation is tantamount to suggesting that this game (or any FF game) should only consist of a tank, a healer, and a party of DD consisting only of JOB-X; it's foolishly audacious.

[Jinrya-Geki]

You don't think there's risk in being melee (e.g., jobs that wear heavy-ish armor) - in restricting yourself to only being able to do damage in close proximity? A melee player could say the same thing: That they find it unfair that mages can pump damage, CC, and debuffs all while being at a safe distance to avoid almost all damage period. This whole "risk/reward" you speak of doesn't just apply to mages; there's risk in melee as well, but just different kinds and different flavors.

Melee have to be in proximity to almost all forms of damage that mobs can spew out, otherwise they won't be able to do any damage at all. Take for example the Kirin fight in XI - if a melee gets/remains to close they're going to get fayced by his huge AoE spell (think it was Aeroga IV - I forget). Perhaps there are better examples, but I think that's simple enough to get the gist. So there's a risk involved just to be able to whip out some WSs on him. Mages on the other hand can remain at a safe distance at all times all while being able to do burst damage at whatever pace they choose (for the most part). Also, as mages have to manage their MP, melee have to manage their TP and use it just as accordingly as mages use their MP pool.

But regardless, I could go on an on about the trade offs between melee vs. mages, but when it all boils down it's all about what can effectively damage the mob during fights. Some fights the mob is too dangerous for anyone to stay at close proximity (and at times, even the tank), and so this is perhaps when mages (and ranged, such as Archers/Rangers/etc.) shine; whereas other fights the mob is so resistant to magic that the only thing that'll really damage it is a blunt weapon across its fayce.

And I'm surprised you think that - honestly; that mages by virtue of being "mages" should somehow always... *magically* (pun intended)... be top DD on average regardless of the fight. I mean, XI had loads of mobs that were highly resistant to magic, to the point where melee were forced to SC just so the mages could get a bump in accuracy and damage so they were sitting there like useless spots in the alliance (which, IMO, was great tactics - to have BLM burst on SC w/e possible).

That one job should always be top overall regardless of the situation is tantamount to suggesting that this game (or any FF game) should only consist of a tank, a healer, and a party of DD consisting only of JOB-X; it's foolishly audacious.

And this whole statement you made is the reason why we have class-stacking, this is what happens when developers do it another way.


Wizards were the power-house of the casters, every other caster were pet classes, except alchemist. It had really good buffs and had potion (ammo) and really good debuffs. The petters could steal do good damage, not as high as wizards, but you could have the pet tank one mob while the master can attack another. Clerics were hysterically awesome at killing undeads, which it had several raid areas with undead.

Sir, look up Everquest Online Adventures for the ps2. Yes the game is very old, but it will show you how well class balance was in that game. Every single class was useful, you could take any class anywhere on a raid.

You can't have two casters, one being a healer with heavy armor that can do roughly the same damage as the one who is only a damage dealer with cloth armor and less health. Or melees, which positioned correctly have just as little threat to some enemies as casters to being hit. Lancers against Ifrit for example, or archers to moogles. Anyone who times the self-explosions or learns a mobs pattern can easily avoid the damage.

When crap hits the fans let's say and the paladin dies. The mob will go after whoever does the most damage. Who is more likely to live long enough for one healer to spam heal while the other revives the tank? Sure as hell won't be Black mage/thaumaturge with it's low defense and hp. Look at mister melee warrior who can dps and possibly tank taking several hits not dying in 1 to 2 hits.

Or Mr. Pugilist/Monk who can evade some hits while the tank is getting back up.

I am sure Lancer can do it to if someone tried hard enough.

No class that can take a hit should ever exceed the one that can't take the hit. It's called Balance.

[Reaujien]

And this whole statement you made is the reason why we have class-stacking, this is what happens when developers do it another way.


Wizards were the power-house of the casters, every other caster were pet classes, except alchemist. It had really good buffs and had potion (ammo) and really good debuffs. The petters could steal do good damage, not as high as wizards, but you could have the pet tank one mob while the master can attack another. Clerics were hysterically awesome at killing undeads, which it had several raid areas with undead.

Sir, look up Everquest Online Adventures for the ps2. Yes the game is very old, but it will show you how well class balance was in that game. Every single class was useful, you could take any class anywhere on a raid.

You can't have two casters, one being a healer with heavy armor that can do roughly the same damage as the one who is only a damage dealer with cloth armor and less health. Or melees, which positioned correctly have just as little threat to some enemies as casters to being hit. Lancers against Ifrit for example, or archers to moogles. Anyone who times the self-explosions or learns a mobs pattern can easily avoid the damage.

When crap hits the fans let's say and the paladin dies. The mob will go after whoever does the most damage. Who is more likely to live long enough for one healer to spam heal while the other revives the tank? Sure as hell won't be Black mage/thaumaturge with it's low defense and hp. Look at mister melee warrior who can dps and possibly tank taking several hits not dying in 1 to 2 hits.

Or Mr. Pugilist/Monk who can evade some hits while the tank is getting back up.

I am sure Lancer can do it to if someone tried hard enough.

No class that can take a hit should ever exceed the one that can't take the hit. It's called Balance.

You're right, we're all wrong.

FFXIV needs to be more like some non-FF PS2 game.

All is well. Then end.


(For the inept, this is the definition of sarcasm...)

[Jinrya-Geki]

You're right, we're all wrong.

FFXIV needs to be more like some non-FF PS2 game.

All is well. Then end.

It needs battles that can be fun, and not be so class-stack heavy.

It had a fight where you have to position behind a rock to avoid an environmental damage called lava splash and to avoid a dragons fire breath damage. That was cool, this game tries to do and it fails miserably at it.

Where as I see pugs or archer get the shaft on the ifrit fight.

[Coglin]

Sir, look up Everquest Online Adventures for the ps2. Yes the game is very old, but it will show you how well class balance was in that game. Every single class was useful, you could take any class anywhere on a raid.

Why do you say everyything past tense? Its a 10 year old MMO. The first one out on PS2, and was PS2 only. BUT, its still alive. Servers are still active. But, yeah as far as end game stuff, its probably one of the most balanced MMOs I have ever played.

In my opinion, that because of the "class balancing" process they took. EQOA put a dev in charge of every class. Gave us the name of the devs and there respective class. The dev posted daily on the specific class thread. Player feed back and dev communication was literally a multi-daily process. It lasted for months. Ahh how I remember the PMs with Deamaas about issues with the bard charm in that game.

In my pinion, what allowed them to balance so well came down to several issues. Most important, was that they decided to spend 3-4 month focused on class balancing. Its the decision to sit down and do it that got it done. They gave full disclosure. We had access to all the spell information. When they adjusted "Anthem on Conquest" they released a good deatail, about it.

Effect:

Increase STR by 75 ; Increase 5% based on CHA
Increase DEX by 75 ; Increase 5% based on CHA

Class:Bard, level 60
Casting Time:2s
Recast:5s
Power Cost:720
Scope:Group
Duration:2 minutes
Resist:Arcane
AoE Radius:20
Hate Rating:0

Purchase of Anthemic Crecendo 5 increases the stamina mod to 20% and makes it an AoE
spell.

Thus telling you all you needed to know about the ability, and allowing you to test its over all feel and effect and debate it on the forums, with a Dev active and part of the debate.

All and al, I have to agree, that FFXIV has definently got one of the more serious balancing issues of MMOs out there at the moment.

people cried and cried about lack of class/role identity, so they cleaned it up a little. jobs only further individualize each role's indentity. now people are crying that jobs are too specific and lack utility, or that they don't make the class OMG UBERLEET.

this happens with every single patch, no matter what is added or taken away. people hate it, square changes it. whatever square changes it to, people hate. they can't win either way and i'm honestly getting completely sick of reading about it.

this community is god damned awful.

Well duh captain obvious.

There are players with all kinds of perspectives and opinion out there. When changes they prefere are occuring, they sit back quietly and allow the changes that they feel are benifits to role in. All the while, the indiveduals on the opposite side of the spectrum raise all the debates and discussions because they feel the current sysem and its changes are bad from there perspective.

When they change the base content and flip it around, the opposite occurs. Now, the before debaters and issue takers, are getting things changed in the manner they prefere, thus they are now quietly sitting back and accepting what they feel ar posotive changes. All the while, the previously quiet group, now feeling the tides turn, step up to debate, argue and complain.

This does not make the community bad, it only displayed how oppinions are divided as well as displays the various sides and perspectives. As it always has from long before your existance, untill now, and always will, long after your gone. The only difference displayed here is your displaying of yout ignorance to that truth, by posting about it.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Why do you say everyything past tense? Its a 10 year old MMO. The first one out on PS2, and was PS2 only. BUT, its still alive. Servers are still active. But, yeah as far as end game stuff, its probably one of the most balanced MMOs I have ever played.

In my opinion, that because of the "class balancing" process they took. EQOA put a dev in charge of every class. Gave us the name of the devs and there respective class. The dev posted daily on the specific class thread. Player feed back and dev communication was literally a multi-daily process. It lasted for months. Ahh how I remember the PMs with Deamaas about issues with the bard charm in that game.

In my pinion, what allowed them to balance so well came down to several issues. Most important, was that they decided to spend 3-4 month focused on class balancing. Its the decision to sit down and do it that got it done. They gave full disclosure. We had access to all the spell information. When they adjusted "Anthem on Conquest" they released a good deatail, about it.

Effect:

Increase STR by 75 ; Increase 5% based on CHA
Increase DEX by 75 ; Increase 5% based on CHA

Class:Bard, level 60
Casting Time:2s
Recast:5s
Power Cost:720
Scope:Group
Duration:2 minutes
Resist:Arcane
AoE Radius:20
Hate Rating:0

Purchase of Anthemic Crecendo 5 increases the stamina mod to 20% and makes it an AoE
spell.

Thus telling you all you needed to know about the ability, and allowing you to test its over all feel and effect and debate it on the forums, with a Dev active and part of the debate.

All and al, I have to agree, that FFXIV has definently got one of the more serious balancing issues of MMOs out there at the moment.

Unfortunately, my friend got an email saying it's finally going to be shutdown soon.

[Coglin]

Unfortunately, my friend got an email saying it's finally going to be shutdown soon.

I know I got it as well.

"Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) is expected to sunset EverQuest Online Adventures on March 29, 2012. SOE will terminate membership/subscription billing for EverQuest Online Adventures on March 1, 2012, but you can continue enjoying the game at no charge through March 29, 2012.

SOE will retain all of the code and data from EverQuest Online Adventures, and will not license or authorize the operation of an EverQuest Online Adventures emulator or fan operated EverQuest Online Adventures server.

you will not have to keep paying for EverQuest Online Adventures. All regular billing for EverQuest Online Adventures will end on March 1, 2012. After this time, you will be able to continue playing the game at no charge (except that Internet fees are your responsibility) until the shutdown date on March 29, 2012.

We will stop all billing for EverQuest Online Adventures on March 1, 2012. For players who have purchased prepaid time via a membership/subscription plan, SOE Game Card or other retail game card that extends the subscription period past February 29, 2012, SOE will provide a pro-rated refund for the time left on the subscription after that date. If a valid credit card is active on your account, any refund will be applied to such credit card. If your account is paid via an SOE Game Card or other retail game card, we will send a check in the refund amount to your current billing address within 90 days after the game ends. Please be sure to update your email and mailing address in your Station Account as this may be critical to the refund process. Please note that billing for All Access Passes will continue after March 1, 2012 and we will not be issuing any refunds for All Access Passes.

All websites and forums associated with EverQuest Online Adventures will be removed after the game shuts down.
We do expect to have a celebration for all EverQuest Online Adventures players, to celebrate the proud history of EverQuest Online Adventures. More details will be forthcoming in a forums post in the near future.
As a gift to current subscribers we will be granting 3 months Gold Membership in both EverQuest and EverQuest II. These Gold memberships will start on Friday, March 16, 2012.Those who already have an EQ or EQII Gold Membership will have 3 months of free time added to their account at the end of their current billing cycle. Those with All Access with get 3 months of free All Access time added on to their current plan."

Truely a sad sad time in MMO history.

[fusional]

The only difference displayed here is your displaying of yout ignorance to that truth, by posting about it.

you want to talk about ignorance? then explain to me how this game can have roughly the same population of english and japanese players, yet the english forum is approaching 10x as many threads as the japanese forum.

but no, you're right. i'm sure dozens of duplicate threads overflowing with 'sky is falling' rhetoric are extremely helpful to devs. lol.

that's not to say they can't glean a few helpful nuggets here and there, but you're completely delusional if you can't see the mountains of absolute shit they have to wade through to find it.

Yeah. Because your crying, whining, and ignorant comment far outshine those of him, or any others you chose to hate for seeing things differently then you.

roleplay a twinkling anime vampire about it.