Tank healing is to high

[Shurrikhan]

Blood bath was way stronger than Nascent flash.

That depend on how immediately one needed healing. It had half the percent damage-to-healing, didn't heal an ally in addition to self, and existed in a context without Enhanced Infuriate, bankable Wrath (now "Beast Gauge") spenders, multiple Infuriate charges, Inner Release, or auto-crit skills. Its only advantage over Nascent was its far longer duration.

[Kabooa]

Out of curiosity, what's the value in Oblation?

10% DR makes sense for non-tanks on raidwides, but if it's a dealbreaker on a tankbuster then you're probably cutting it too close. And even if we're talking about shielding allies on raidwides, it's worth remembering that several of the melee dps have their own personal shields on 30 second recasts that mitigate the same if not more on shorter recasts than this level 82 tank mitigation move. Its use seems fairly niche to me.

To meme a little bit on the devs, "value will depend on player skill".

The short version is that TBN + Oblation is about equal to the other Short CDs on busters, and only busters, and only then if we discount the healing put on them.

TBN + Oblation = 125% HP / .9 = ~138% EHP
Bloodwhetting = 100% HP / .81 * 1.072 = ~132% EHP
Heart of Corundrum = 100% HP / .72 = ~ 138% EHP
Shelltron = 100% / .8 / .85 = ~147% EHP

Moving into other scenarios, TBN + Oblation begins to fare worse almost entirely because it's the only one of the combinations that doesn't restore health, in addition to the actual % mitigation being lower. Once the shield is gone, which in a wall to wall pull currently would pop the shield and then all you have is a 10% mitigation.

Comparatively speaking, the other tanks still have 15-25% mitigation running, and their "TBN" worth of health is still coming in. While theoretically this means all the tanks are mostly equal in this regard, the reality is that Dark Knights require more support and awareness in staying alive. It's just a matter of numbers at that point, though experienced Dark Knights with experienced healers will hardly run into any bumps. This in part is also contributed to by Living Dead still being a trashfire. That's 10 seconds worth of cooldown reduction Dark Knights are conditioned to avoid using in most cases.

The short version here is that the enemy scaling Bloodwhetting and Nascent have should probably be removed, and then things stop at least being absurdly ridiculous. Finally fix Living Dead in addition to that and maybe the riot will stave off a few more months.

[Oextra]

It's an issue in that it allowed me to just grab 2 decent DPS over shout chat to play alongside my RDM friend and literally not bother with a healer during dungeon spams to level as Warrior, and that I could still keep myself and my DPS alive while zombie-ing through said dungeons, sick and tired from my booster. When one role makes another defunct, let alone with no real effort required, that's not great for the overall experience.

I find it funny that you typed this as an attempt to show that war healing is broken when you were rolling with a DPS/healer (rdm) while "zombie-ing" through dungeons (which are never challenging). You also missed the point that war and pld have been capable of this back in ShB. Wasn't broken then. Not broken now. Also I've done a lv 80 dungeon this expansion with no tank. Just me pseudo tanking on MnK, with a whm and a rdm. So I guess MnK is also op.....

[Lyth]

...

We're not really trying to min-max mitigation, though. You're either alive or dead at the end of a tankbuster. I don't see many cases where that extra 10% is specifically going to push you into a safe zone, and even then I probably wouldn't trust it. Otherwise we'd be burning Reprisal on tankbusters.

[Shurrikhan]

I find it funny that you typed this as an attempt to show that war healing is broken when you were rolling with a DPS/healer (rdm)

:: First, off, no Vercures were used except between fights. I think in Ktisis one DPS mis-aimed their Elusive when maxing uptime of meteors and went into the drink and was Verraised, across Zot -> Aitiascope. An RDM is not remotely relevant when you're running a Warrior. Lacking the 30% trait, a RDM's 350 cure potency is worth only 270 of an actual healer's.

You also missed the point that war and pld have been capable of this back in ShB. Wasn't broken then. Not broken now. Also I've done a lv 80 dungeon this expansion with no tank. Just me pseudo tanking on MnK, with a whm and a rdm. So I guess MnK is also op.....

No, I did not miss the point. I argued that there is a matter of degree before which being able to no-heal is fine and after which being to no-heal 00easily, thoughtlessly, and faster-- is not.

Let's take your "OP Monk tank" example. Was it faster to do that dungeon tanking as a Monk than with an actual tank? Twice in the last three days, I've three-manned (Reaper/Monk-tanked) the first two bosses of dungeons during the period where we couldn't kick and replace our d/ced tank. You don't even need RoE/AC to survive the tankbusters. I've done similar in every expansion. Even if we'd had another dps, though, it certainly wouldn't have been faster than taking a tank, unlike replacing the healer with a further DPS now when one's tank is a Warrior.

No-tanking dungeons has been possible since 2.0. No-healing dungeons has been possible since 2.0. Neither, depending on one's comp, has ever stopped being possible. But, apart from the quickly nerfed Titan-Egi-based 4-SMN kite/swap groups, they have never been faster nor as easy to pull off as traditional 1/2/1 groups from the moment Mind gear split from Intelligence. That's the difference.

[Oextra]

:: First, off, no Vercures were used except between fights.[...]

Why would you cast vercure in between fights when the auto Regen will take care of that? Especially since OP war is face rolling the dungeon..... but whatever I'll take your word for it. Also it doesn't matter if vercure isn't as strong as a normal healer's cure. It still adds a decent enough amount of HP, especially since they can do it twice in a row in essentially the same time a normal cure could be casted (basically making it a 540 potency cure). So don't try to write it off as irrelevant, it's not Physick.

No, I did not miss the point. I argued that there is a matter of degree before which being able to no-heal is fine and after which being to no-heal 00easily, thoughtlessly, and faster-- is not.

So speed running trivial content dictates whether something is op or not? As stated before, this has been a thing at least since ShB. People have been able to speed run dungeons with no healer since 5.3 as someone showed multiple videos of. The only dungeons I would say WAR is legit stronger in are lv 56-76 ones since RI is now NF. Everything else is more or less the same in terms of results. WAR been capable of soloing bosses since 5.3 and can still solo now. The only difference is now it can happen starting from 56 instead of 76.

Let's take your "OP Monk tank" example. [...]

It wasn't an example. It was sarcasm to point out the ridiculousness of this entire thread. Being able to do "outrageous" things in easy content is not mind blowing. It's entertaining at best and therefore a poor measure of something being op or not.

When you can find a group completing raids and trials faster/easier without any healers and strictly tanks and DPS, then we can discuss what's op. Until then this entire discussion needs to transition from tanks are somehow too powerful (for trivial content), to dungeons should be made to be more difficult or at least have a "Savage/Extreme" option like trials and raids. Because what we have here isn't a tank problem. It's a "bottom end" content isn't challenging enough problem.

[Payadopa]

So we got from healers heal to healers heal and DPS to healers mainly DPS (with one button) to healers don't even need to be present anymore. Great design. /s

[IdowhatIwant]

I think it is pretty fair to say that more most of the game War has had to much self sustain. I think this expansion the self sustain is over the top particularly in wars case. I don't think it was really needed and I am not understanding why it was implemented.

[Ashua]

To meme a little bit on the devs, "value will depend on player skill".

The short version is that TBN + Oblation is about equal to the other Short CDs on busters, and only busters, and only then if we discount the healing put on them.

TBN + Oblation = 125% HP / .9 = ~138% EHP
Bloodwhetting = 100% HP / .81 * 1.072 = ~132% EHP
Heart of Corundrum = 100% HP / .72 = ~ 138% EHP
Shelltron = 100% / .8 / .85 = ~147% EHP

Moving into other scenarios, TBN + Oblation begins to fare worse almost entirely because it's the only one of the combinations that doesn't restore health, in addition to the actual % mitigation being lower. Once the shield is gone, which in a wall to wall pull currently would pop the shield and then all you have is a 10% mitigation.

Comparatively speaking, the other tanks still have 15-25% mitigation running, and their "TBN" worth of health is still coming in. While theoretically this means all the tanks are mostly equal in this regard, the reality is that Dark Knights require more support and awareness in staying alive. It's just a matter of numbers at that point, though experienced Dark Knights with experienced healers will hardly run into any bumps. This in part is also contributed to by Living Dead still being a trashfire. That's 10 seconds worth of cooldown reduction Dark Knights are conditioned to avoid using in most cases.

The short version here is that the enemy scaling Bloodwhetting and Nascent have should probably be removed, and then things stop at least being absurdly ridiculous. Finally fix Living Dead in addition to that and maybe the riot will stave off a few more months.

Cant argue with math...

[Atreides]

I think it is pretty fair to say that more most of the game War has had to much self sustain. I think this expansion the self sustain is over the top particularly in wars case. I don't think it was really needed and I am not understanding why it was implemented.

SE's not known to balance around dungeons though. In raids WAR sustain is perfectly fine.