*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[EaraGrace]

Poorly, in my opinion. That speech of hers you quoted is very poetic, and also completely meaningless in the context of the circumstances at hand and what she is doing. Just from the outset, nobody is perfect, none of the races we encounter including the Ancients, they're all on that "never-ending quest", and yet the Ancients are supposed by Venat to be a hopeless dead-end that must be replaced by the Sundered. The Dragons are also nigh-immortal and incredibly powerful. But Midgardsormr wasn't "swallowed by despair". He wanted to live, and he wanted his children to live, and the race as a whole clearly want to live. With that in mind, one really needs to question whether Venat's answer - More specifically her actions - Were at all justifiable or even reasonable.

You’re 100% correct that no species is perfect, Venat said the same, the point being to not seek perfection as it will never be found, but instead to try to improve where you can. The point of the Sundering wasn’t to give rise to Venats ideal people, it was to prevent the Ancients from condemning all life to a path that would lead to despair.

Remember her words from when she Sundered the world

From that temptation, I sunder us!

The point isn’t to create a “better” living being, but to ensure that the temptation to rely on a deity for answers and solutions could not come to pass. If her only interest was to create the Sundered, then it would be counterproductive to alert the Convocation that you disagree with them as you potentially just give your enemy more time to act. No, she genuinely wanted the Ancients to live on whole, her attempts at reaching out to others and pleading with them to change proves that.

But they obviously didn’t a thus summoned Zodiark. Tragically, Zodiark was made for the salvation of the star, his heart was Elidibus, He was by all accounts a deity that would be solely dedicated to the Ancients. But, in creating Him, the Ancients in essence assured their own doom when inevitably Zodiark would falter and suffering would again turn to Etheirys. They would be unable to come up with an answer, as there only answer, Zodiark, had failed. Thus, to prevent that future, life must be “sundered” from that temptation, one Venat never judged.

On the dragons: In the quests in Ultima Thule, you find out that Midgardsormr was widely mocked for his decision to flee and that is why he was the only one t make the journey. Midgardsormr had the answer, for sure, but his answer brought him to Hydaelyn/Venat and away from the Dragonstar. His answer and hers were in synch. And the dragons left behind, who yes wanted to live before, experienced the horrors of a war that led to their young being killed and corrupted. Now, they have no interest in living, preferring to become as stones.

[Kozh]

If her only interest was to create the Sundered, then it would be counterproductive to alert the Convocation that you disagree with them as you potentially just give your enemy more time to act. No, she genuinely wanted the Ancients to live on whole, her attempts at reaching out to others and pleading with them to change proves that.

But they obviously didn’t a thus summoned Zodiark. Tragically, Zodiark was made for the salvation of the star, his heart was Elidibus, He was by all accounts a deity that would be solely dedicated to the Ancients. But, in creating Him, the Ancients in essence assured their own doom when inevitably Zodiark would falter and suffering would again turn to Etheirys. They would be unable to come up with an answer, as there only answer, Zodiark, had failed. Thus, to prevent that future, life must be “sundered” from that temptation, one Venat never judged.

Funny how you keep saying zodiark will inevitably faltered, when it's never mentioned in the game. Or in the case that I'm mistaken and it's actually mentioned, zodiark manage to keep earth safe after being sundered into 14 reflection, for 12 thousand years. And it's a veeeery long time even by the Ancients standard (judging by emet's reaction hearing our tale). For someone who's motto is "nothing is impossible", she sure quick to gave up on her own kind.

Sure, sacrificing one generation of life to bring back the past is an extreme dick move, but supposedly the sundering never happened, what's stopping the Ancients to find a way to fight back meteion? Oh I know, because venat never bother to tell them the source of final days. For all the Ancients know, it's a strange phenomenon from the star itself, one cannot explain by their researches. They don't know it's caused by entity that could be defeated.

And now the sundering happen, instead of one generation we got multiple generation being wiped out so the WoL can have a chance in defeating meteion. Bravo venat.

Now that etheryis is peaceful once again, what stopping the sundered to become Allag 2.0? Reaching perfection and being bored due to it. Or maybe they'll wipe humanity due to civil war like how the second society on last dungeon? We know they got the potential for that. What then? Having venat 2.0 to do sundering again and restart mankind?

[YianKutku]

Which goes back to what Urianger says himself, NONE of the places she found were doing well, her arrival had negative effects and helped push them over, but the ones that hadn't already wiped themselves out were for one reason or another already on the edge.

Which is a lot like how the Ascians operated. They never resorted to anything as direct as mind-control or force to cause Calamities. Instead, they looked for places and peoples where they can push the existing negative sentiments far enough to cause chaos.

Meteion did it (probably) unconsciously, while the Ascians do it deliberately. I would say that this "pushing" did not only happen to societies which were already teetering on the edge, but also to societies that seemed stable enough, but where one strike in the right spot will expose a brittle weakness that brings it all crashing down.

I'll point out, as you have pointed out, Hermes is the leader of Elpis. Leaders often abuse positions of authority to bend and break rules. Subordinates do not call them out for fear of loss of position or loss of potential increase in rank or pay. It's not really a commentary on how lax rules are in Elpis, but moreso that Hermes is beholden to no one there. There is no one who can, or wishes to, enforce the rules on him.

Which again leads into how Hermes is the chief of Elpis, where he bends and ignores rules to his own benefit, and nobody calls him out on it (whether because he's the leader and nobody questions the leader, or if it's just because the rules don't mean much), and it is this rule-breaking unquestioned leader who is being nominated (by his predecessor in leading Elpis) to the seat of Fandaniel on the Convocation. Which he eventually got, despite being present at a major malfunction of a dangerous mechanism prompted by the alleged instability of his own creation's shared consciousness.

Our descent into Pandemonium shows that the Convocation can enforce the rules on the leaders of the facilities, albeit usually by simply wiping out the entire facility and starting over, which Themis feels is too brute-force a solution. Emet-Selch, as the official representative of the Convocation, decided that the memory wipe was considered unimportant and non-urgent, so evidently while the Convocation can enforce the rules, they chose not to in this case.

Also it's another sign of the dysfunction of Amaurotine bureaucracy that evidently Kairos itself has no records on how it was used, since none of the other Elpis researchers even mentioned "let's check Kairos to see where the malfunction happened". It's one of those cases which would, in the real world, get brought up in university lectures about safety precautions under the Powerpoint slide heading "every rule in the book is written in blood". But the Amaurotines, thanks to their sheer power, are almost always insulated from the consequences of their actions using that power.

The point isn’t to create a “better” living being, but to ensure that the temptation to rely on a deity for answers and solutions could not come to pass. If her only interest was to create the Sundered, then it would be counterproductive to alert the Convocation that you disagree with them as you potentially just give your enemy more time to act. No, she genuinely wanted the Ancients to live on whole, her attempts at reaching out to others and pleading with them to change proves that.

Which does answer "why did Venat turn to Sundering". Venat didn't sunder as her first option: instead, she tried to convince the others not to turn to a deity to deliver them from their problems, and instead work themselves to rebuild Amaurot.

And while I admit to the irony of using the word "literally" for a metaphorical scene, the Amaurotines "literally" turned their backs on her, to pray to Zodiark instead.

On the dragons: In the quests in Ultima Thule, you find out that Midgardsormr was widely mocked for his decision to flee and that is why he was the only one t make the journey. Midgardsormr had the answer, for sure, but his answer brought him to Hydaelyn/Venat and away from the Dragonstar. His answer and hers were in synch. And the dragons left behind, who yes wanted to live before, experienced the horrors of a war that led to their young being killed and corrupted. Now, they have no interest in living, preferring to become as stones.

If I recall, Midgardsormr was not the only dragon to flee, although he was considered the most powerful (both to flee and in general). It's just that very few dragons chose to flee, and to the dragons in the (recreation at Ultima Thule of the) Dragonstar, Midgardsormr's survival is the only one they'd heard of from us. If any other of the fleeing dragons survived, we might never know.

Also I liked that after the final MSQ, the sidequests in Ultima Thule had the recreations there start to live and hope again, like how the dragons realized that while their world was dead, they still had the power, however miniscule, to slowly bring it back to life.

[EaraGrace]

Funny how you keep saying zodiark will inevitably faltered, when it's never mentioned in the game. Or in the case that I'm mistaken and it's actually mentioned, zodiark manage to keep earth safe after being sundered into 14 reflection, for 12 thousand years. And it's a veeeery long time even by the Ancients standard (judging by emet's reaction hearing our tale). For someone who's motto is "nothing is impossible", she sure quick to gave up on her own kind.

Sure, sacrificing one generation of life to bring back the past is an extreme dick move, but supposedly the sundering never happened, what's stopping the Ancients to find a way to fight back meteion? Oh I know, because venat never bother to tell them the source of final days. For all the Ancients know, it's a strange phenomenon from the star itself, one cannot explain by their researches. They don't know it's caused by entity that could be defeated.

And now the sundering happen, instead of one generation we got multiple generation being wiped out so the WoL can have a chance in defeating meteion. Bravo venat.

Now that etheryis is peaceful once again, what stopping the sundered to become Allag 2.0? Reaching perfection and being bored due to it. Or maybe they'll wipe humanity due to civil war like how the second society on last dungeon? We know they got the potential for that. What then? Having venat 2.0 to do sundering again and restart mankind?

I don’t think you’re getting what I’m trying to say. Zodiark will inevitably fail because he is not a perfect god. He will do all he is capable of, which is much, but inevitably a crisis will arise that he cannot wave away. Perhaps Meteion finally breaks through the shroud of aether. Perhaps another like Hermes or Amon despairs and wishes to bring an end to things. Perhaps another tragedy befalls the world that the Ancients could not conceive of. The possibilities are endless, and the solutions limited. And once again, she explicitly did not give up. First, she tried to convince the Ancients on multiple occasions. And even then, her faith in humanity is not divided by presundered and sundered, she views them as one in the same. Shattered sure, but mankind one and the same.

And the Ancients, a society that was so desperate to escape suffering that it would sacrifice innocent life for their benefit, is to face a graveyard of civlizations, the eventual heat death of the universe and being born of pure despair? Armed with only faith that Zodiark would stop all? They would falter. That is a fact. They would need to come to terms with suffering, of which I believe they could. But as they were during the Final Days? No I don’t believe they would.

If I recall, Midgardsormr was not the only dragon to flee, although he was considered the most powerful (both to flee and in general). It's just that very few dragons chose to flee, and to the dragons in the (recreation at Ultima Thule of the) Dragonstar, Midgardsormr's survival is the only one they'd heard of from us. If any other of the fleeing dragons survived, we might never know.

Also I liked that after the final MSQ, the sidequests in Ultima Thule had the recreations there start to live and hope again, like how the dragons realized that while their world was dead, they still had the power, however miniscule, to slowly bring it back to life.

I believe it’s explicitly said that none else fled because they thought it cowardice, though I’ll look and see if I can grab the quote. And yeah those post finale quest lines were nice, sad but nice

[YianKutku]

I believe it’s explicitly said that none else fled because they thought it cowardice, though I’ll look and see if I can grab the quote. And yeah those post finale quest lines were nice, sad but nice

Ah, yeah, I double-checked, and it's more like a mix of both: Midgardsormr was the only one who fled before the Omicrons invaded in full. After he left, there were some who wanted to follow:

Sehth Toskh: However, some few did wish to follow him. Midgardsormr was wiser and more formidable than most -- this, they believed. They knew he would forge a better fate than awaited us here...

Sehth Toskh: Would that they had not been halted by the ferocity of the machines' onslaught, in the end.

(Sidequest "Left Alive")

And after the Omicrons abandoned the Dragonstar (or at least once the fighting wound down), more attempted to leave:

Estinien: But there are dragons among you capable of journeying to other stars.

Bereaved Dragon: That there are. Many would make the attempt, each bearing a clutch of eggs.

Bereaved Dragon: The richest stars were home to the harshest rulers, and the arrival of dragons incited contests for supremacy.

Bereaved Dragon: When the fires faded, the wars lost and won, they too were reduced to ash and waste.

(MSQ "A Test of Will")

So from what the dragons knew, none of the dragons who left the Dragonstar survived, whether in the attempt to flee or when they found other worlds. However, this also apparently included Midgardsormr to their knowledge, and we had to prove that not all the dragons who fled died out. At least one of the dragons also thought "yes, Midgardsormr found a home on another star, but there was war between dragons and others anyway, so it's only a matter of time", which is rather pessimistic (if understandably so), but does imply that what the dragons tell us is true and inevitable might not actually be the case at the moment.

[EaraGrace]

Ah, yeah, I double-checked, and it's more like a mix of both: Midgardsormr was the only one who fled before the Omicrons invaded in full. After he left, there were some who wanted to follow:



(Sidequest "Left Alive")

And after the Omicrons abandoned the Dragonstar (or at least once the fighting wound down), more attempted to leave:



(MSQ "A Test of Will")

So from what the dragons knew, none of the dragons who left the Dragonstar survived, whether in the attempt to flee or when they found other worlds. However, this also apparently included Midgardsormr to their knowledge, and we had to prove that not all the dragons who fled died out. At least one of the dragons also thought "yes, Midgardsormr found a home on another star, but there was war between dragons and others anyway, so it's only a matter of time", which is rather pessimistic (if understandably so), but does imply that what the dragons tell us is true and inevitable might not actually be the case at the moment.

Good call! The possibility does exist that we haven’t found those other dragons who fled. I wonder if the same doesn’t also apply to the Omicrons, given the fact that the group we find is relatively cut off. The Omicrons and the Dragons seem to have intertwined destinies.

[Veloran]

You’re 100% correct that no species is perfect, Venat said the same, the point being to not seek perfection as it will never be found, but instead to try to improve where you can. The point of the Sundering wasn’t to give rise to Venats ideal people, it was to prevent the Ancients from condemning all life to a path that would lead to despair.

Remember her words from when she Sundered the world

The point isn’t to create a “better” living being, but to ensure that the temptation to rely on a deity for answers and solutions could not come to pass.

The issue, I think, is that her solution appears not to have worked. People still want to advance, prosper, and reduce suffering. People are still very willing to turn to Primals for salvation - Hydaelyn being one such example - and even without them are wont to turn to individuals like WoL. At the end of 5.0, Urianger even tells Emet that they share the selfsame motivation, creating the "best of all futures". In this context the sundering did not change the nature of mankind, it merely set-back their progress.

If her only interest was to create the Sundered, then it would be counterproductive to alert the Convocation that you disagree with them as you potentially just give your enemy more time to act. No, she genuinely wanted the Ancients to live on whole, her attempts at reaching out to others and pleading with them to change proves that.

The Convocation should not have even been her enemy, she is the one who made herself their enemy, by intent. I can hardly view her attempts to reach out to them as being in good-faith when any argument she made could only have been predicated on lies about their situation.

On the dragons: In the quests in Ultima Thule, you find out that Midgardsormr was widely mocked for his decision to flee and that is why he was the only one t make the journey. Midgardsormr had the answer, for sure, but his answer brought him to Hydaelyn/Venat and away from the Dragonstar.

And this was a very good decision on Midgardsormr's part. He didn't presume to be the arbitrator of his entire race's future and dictate what path they should take, he took his own path divergent from their own. I think Venat should have done the same.

Which again leads into how Hermes is the chief of Elpis, where he bends and ignores rules to his own benefit, and nobody calls him out on it

It doesn't appear as though Hermes was strictly in violation of any rules in creating Meteion. All creations don't necessarily need to be accounted with the Bureau, rather people do so in order to widely distribute their creations. On Elpis, given it was specifically for the creation of new lifeforms which might one day be seeded across the star, it looks like registration is mainly for creations that pass testing and are ready for that. Meteion, however, was basically Hermes familiar and a personal creation, and as such probably didn't need registration. However his plan to create hundreds of her and send them across the universe was probably breaking the rules on so many levels that this is why he chose to do so in secrecy.

[Rulakir]

Regarding Venat's efforts to change her people, I'm only aware of the scene from ShB in Anyder and the post-Elpis scene.

Distressed Ancient One: Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same. I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings. I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.

This tells me whatever their platform was, it was not a convincing one. Not just to the are-they-or-aren't-they-tempered Convocation, but to Azem as well.

The post-Elpis cutscene is a mess. We're not supposed to take it literally, so I have no way of knowing to what extent Venat attempted to engage with the public at large. It doesn't change the fact that she wouldn't have given them context. Who would choose suffering just because someone told them to, especially if they had the option to not suffer? This wouldn't be a mindset exclusive to the Ancients either. There's plenty of evidence to suggest they were reasonable, intelligent people and Venat was a valued member of their society, so by process of elimination the next issue would be the message itself. Now that I type this out, I realize how similar this was to Meteion. Neither liked the responses they received and both decided they knew what was in Etheirys' best interest.

Also, at the risk of busting out Biblical stories :P, I can't help but be reminded of Sodom & Gomorrah where Lot pleads with God to not destroy the cities if he can find 10 righteous people. We know that "no small number" either supported Venat (at least what she deigned to tell them) or were opposed to a third sacrifice to Zodiark, but that wasn't enough for her.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of crucial details from the Final Days that didn't make it into the game. All I can say is, from my POV, there was lack of proof that Venat exhausted every possibility and only used sundering as a last resort. I also think that her various defenses became too much, like they just kept adding layers to the 'try to justify the sundering' pile. We were led to believe in ShB that her side was the 'protect the new life' side, which didn't seem to be a factor in EW. It's depicted she tried to get her people to change, yet we're also told they had to be sundered in order to interact with dynamis. Then there's the additional implication that their civilization needed to be 'reset' anyway lest they become the next Ra-las. I'm sure I'm missing some too.

[EaraGrace]

The issue, I think, is that her solution appears not to have worked. People still want to advance, prosper, and reduce suffering. People are still very willing to turn to Primals for salvation - Hydaelyn being one such example - and even without them are wont to turn to individuals like WoL. At the end of 5.0, Urianger even tells Emet that they share the selfsame motivation, creating the "best of all futures". In this context the sundering did not change the nature of mankind, it merely set-back their progress.

Wanting to advance, prosper and reduce suffering was not the issue. Refusing to accept the inevitability of suffering was the issue. And yes, people will still struggle and find themselves, that does not change the fact that humanity is now on the path to both searching for solutions to problems, while still being able to grapple with failure. That wasn’t the case before, and would’ve led to humanitys end.

The Convocation should not have even been her enemy, she is the one who made herself their enemy, by intent. I can hardly view her attempts to reach out to them as being in good-faith when any argument she made could only have been predicated on lies about their situation.

What lie is there in stating that they have not solved the crisis and that an unrestrained Zodiark would not save them?

And this was a very good decision on Midgardsormr's part. He didn't presume to be the arbitrator of his entire race's future and dictate what path they should take, he took his own path divergent from their own. I think Venat should have done the same.

She should have fled and left the rest of humanity to its fate? To where? To another planet unprotected by Zodiark? And how?

[Dark_Lord_Kuro]

Wasnt that supposed to be solved by the rejoining of the first? The light from the first would "cancel" the darkness from the 13th?
Or at least that how i understood it
I mean why else would they voluntairly make it a void of light seeing what happened when the 13th shard was made a void of darkness