*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[MikkoAkure]

I don’t think it’s any more wild than people saying the ancients would continue to keep sacrificing and sacrificing when there’s little evidence of that.

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered. It's not as much of a reach as saying that "everyone left over is the dregs of society".

Pre-Endwalker I was suspicious of Zodiark and the Ascians intentions since our only metric for primals were the aether hungry, twisted beings we had put down before. Ramuh was different, but the Ascians themselves were surprised of Ramuh's actions so I don't think they believed primals could work that way. So I thought among other possibilities that there was a possibility they might end the same as it did for the Beastmen, but now I don't think so because the presented facts don't support that opinion as much. It still doesn't change my opinion that their society would have changed focus to their god based on how the Ascians act and devote themselves to their "one true god".

The idea that the 25% left are "chaff" is wild supposition and doesn't have any connection to existing lore unless you want to provide it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered. It's not as much of a reach as saying that "everyone left over is the dregs of society".

Pre-Endwalker I was suspicious of Zodiark and the Ascians intentions since our only metric for primals were the aether hungry, twisted beings we had put down before. Ramuh was different, but the Ascians themselves were surprised of Ramuh's actions so I don't think they believed primals could work that way. So I thought among other possibilities that there was a possibility they might end the same as it did for the Beastmen, but now I don't think so because the presented facts don't support that opinion as much. It still doesn't change my opinion that their society would have changed focus to their god based on how the Ascians act and devote themselves to their "one true god".

The idea that the 25% left are "chaff" is wild supposition and doesn't have any connection to existing lore unless you want to provide it.

Except we know from the short stories that even while people were tempered they were in disagreement with each other in things relating to Zodiark. So that kind of refuted the whole statement, along with Yoshi p going on record stating the primal can choose how severe the tempering is, and considering Elidibus was the heart i doubt it would be as intense as people make it out to be. It’s as wild of an assumption because we have various pieces of info that refute it so we’re back to square one on both.

[MikkoAkure]

Except we know from the short stories that even while people were tempered they were in disagreement with each other in things relating to Zodiark. So that kind of refuted the whole statement, along with Yoshi p going on record stating the primal can choose how severe the tempering is, and considering Elidibus was the heart i doubt it would be as intense as people make it out to be. It’s as wild of an assumption because we have various pieces of info that refute it so we’re back to square one on both.

I said in my post that you quoted that I changed my mind on that.

I think what the Convocation had was a push to keep going and work to bring him back, otherwise I don't think a sane person could keep genociding for 12,000 years. Somewhere along the line, they started saying "one true god" this and "veil the world in darkness" that, and it could be attributed to a slow tempering over 12,000 years, but you can't exactly introduce a living god of your making into your society and expect it to go back to how it was before either. Especially if it went the way they were hoping with it bringing the dead back to life.

[MikkoAkure]

It's funny you should say that since it's the closest I've come to agreeing with the other side of the debate. However, if you want to argue that all of the Ancients were good who didn't deserve their fate I'm here for it!

I'm not sure how that counts as being the closest you've come to agreeing when that 25% of the people left that you're disparaging also includes the large chunk of people who summoned Hydaelyn.

I won't say that all the Ancients were good people, Hermes is a piece of work and Hesperos had some deep-seated feelings he was hiding that were drawn out and magnified by who-knows-what. But I don't believe there is anything in the text supporting the idea that a quarter of the Final Days survivors who made it to the summonings were bad or weak people.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I said in my post that you quoted that I changed my mind on that.

I think what the Convocation had was a push to keep going and work to bring him back, otherwise I don't think a sane person could keep genociding for 12,000 years. Somewhere along the line, they started saying "one true god" this and "veil the world in darkness" that, and it could be attributed to a slow tempering over 12,000 years, but you can't exactly introduce a living god of your making into your society and expect it to go back to how it was before either. Especially if it went the way they were hoping with it bringing the dead back to life.

I do agree with that. I do have a question but do we see that from ShB onwards? Outside of Emet i mean like do we see the ancients post Zodiark saying things like that whether in short stories or the like because i’m wondering if that was simply something that was shown in ARR/HW but then dropped(presumably after they decided to make hydy and zodi primals). I think in the end a lot of it rests on unanswered questions that will sadly most likely never get answered. For example what specifically was the life they wanted to sacrifice? Was it soul filled creations, was it life akin to the sundered life? Or was it life on par with the ancients.

[MikkoAkure]

I do agree with that. I do have a question but do we see that from ShB onwards? Outside of Emet i mean like do we see the ancients post Zodiark saying things like that whether in short stories or the like because i’m wondering if that was simply something that was shown in ARR/HW but then dropped(presumably after they decided to make hydy and zodi primals). I think in the end a lot of it rests on unanswered questions that will sadly most likely never get answered. For example was specifically was the life they wanted to sacrifice? Was it soul filled creations, was it life akin to the sundered life? Or was it life on par with the ancients.

Yeah, I think a large part of it was more that the writing got better than anything else, but I still feel like you need to reconcile the present with how the writing was before.

As far as the life to be sacrificed, that's one of my biggest remaining questions. The Ancients live for a long time and there was time enough for the division of their society to happen between those who followed Elidibus and those who followed Venat. But it could've been anywhere from a couple of weeks to many years. And we don't know if the life left over is a bunch of animals or if sentient people are included. I would assume that hyur and elezen separately descended from the sundered Ancients, but what about the other races? Were they around at the time? Were they called into existence when Zodiark seeded the star with life and that's what Venat wanted to protect?

I feel like more knowledge on all that could give us a better understanding of Venat's actions and I hope that something relating to that comes out in a future "Tales from the Dawn". We'd be robbed if they don't do one for this expansion or if out of all the stories, none have anything to do with the Ancients at all.

[Rulakir]

But I don't believe there is anything in the text supporting the idea that a quarter of the Final Days survivors who made it to the summonings were bad or weak people.

I didn't say there was, I said it was a possibility. The ones depicted in the post-Elpis cutscene are not who I'd consider a good representation of the Ancients as a whole. However, if those types were representative of who was left? Well, then there'd be more argument in favor of what Venat did.

[Anvaire]

For what it's worth, the actual explanation given for this is that the Ancient ruins on the Source were destroyed over time by the Calamities. All they had to survive on the First was uncountable years of neglect and natural erosion, and even that did a number on Amaurot, although Anamnesis Anyder managed to stay intact.

On the Source? They had to suffer through six different planetwide cataclysms, including a great flood, an unending blizzard, and colossal windstorms. It's not that the Sundering hit the Source any harder; it's that afterwards, the Ascians hit the Source with enough force that they likely wiped the planet clean of any conclusive evidence of their own society. Which is... kinda tragic, actually.

True enough, this explains why they were entirely lost, at least, in so far as Eorzea and ilsabard are concerned. But my point is that some should have survived on one of the other shards, we might find this out latr of course, but that doesnt explain away where the Ancients actually went. There should be some evidence that they lived. Some race of giant people walking around. As i said it may be they just died out after the sundering during the many calamities.

But hypothetically speaking, if there are no ancients following the sundering and no writings, nothing on any of the shards, then to me that suggests that they were wiped out before the sundering occured. Or at least the possibility that this happened. Even with the calamities, there should be some evidence of their existence even if it was simply in the stories told by the survivers of a giant like race. Or maybe 12 survived and they are known as the twelve now. Who knows, maybe we'll find out in the future. I just think its an interesting thing to consider. There really isnt any way of knowing whether or not the Sundering was also genocide or not at the moment.

[Anvaire]

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered. It's not as much of a reach as saying that "everyone left over is the dregs of society".

I think Emet selch refered to them as "Primals after a fashion" and the end of Endwalker states it is intention of the current summoning method that makes them temper people. Zodiark ws a product of creation magic and if he did temper those that summoned it I think it was more about affecting the polarity of their aether over making them into mindless servants who would worship him. I think the Ascians devotion to Zodiark is more about gratitude to the souls within him than for him being "one true god" Its also likely that the story in ARR wasnt fleshed out enough to be considered wholly canon to endwalker. So Lahabrea's monologue about ZOdiark shouldnt really be taken as gospell. Especially since the milenias of body hopping had turned him in a deranged creature. I think Emet even mentions that Lahabrea burned his life by the body hopping while emet just took a body, lived its lifespan and then took another.

[Veloran]

Zodiark is a primal. It's summoners are tempered.

Don't they specifically say this expansion that Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't like modern Primals and can't temper people?