Why does Sage punish you for using your healing spells?

[kejakalope]

So much this, if they shuffled around the potency of Toxicon and Dosis it would feel SO much more rewarding.

The intended purpose of Toxicon in single-target seems to be to let you continue DPS while you're forced to move.

[Connor]

The intended purpose of Toxicon in single-target seems to be to let you continue DPS while you're forced to move.

This was my impression as well. The problem with this idea though is that Sage already has so many mobility options that it doesn’t really need the extra movement in the first place. Between Dosis slide-casts, Phlegma charges, Eukrasian Dosis and even putting up Eukrasian Diagnosis / Prognosis, you already have a lot of options, so a lot of the time it ends up not being worth applying the shield even if you do need to move, because the potency is only equal to Dosis, and it’s rare you’ll be moving so frequently that you literally cannot devote 1.5s to Dosis lol. I think increasing the potency of Toxicon is the best way to address that; lowering the dps penalty for using it would do a lot to make the Addersting mechanic feel less restrictive. That way there’s meaningful decision making in using Toxicon over Dosis other than ‘I want to lower my own dps’ lol

[HyoMinPark]

Toxicon is handy when you need to travel longer distances in a shorter amount of time. Instances where slidecasting might result in you getting clipped as a mechanic catches up to you. Phlegma isn’t meant to be used as a movement tool—its uses at an optimized level are calculated to fall within raid buffs. Not be saved for heavy movement. And this ain’t counting instances where you won’t be in range to use it anyways.

I’ve found plenty of uses for Toxicon, especially if I’m down Swiftcast because I used it on Egeiro versus for movement. The main issue is their generation being a DPS loss more often than not.

[Nethereal]

But the potency of Toxicon means that anytime I try to prepare Toxicon, I end up leaking damage because I had to use GCDs on Eukrasian Diagnosis (diagnoses? lol).

Did they change how Eukrasia works while I was away? Enhancing your spells is not a dps loss it equates to a regular GCD.
Eukrasia is a 1 second GCD recast with the spells it effects being 1.5 second recasts making it a regular 2.5 recast like any other spell.

The main issue is their generation being a DPS loss more often than not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but their generation is only a dps loss if you were to run out of mana because of generating them otherwise they're dps neutral.
2 targets being a dps gain.

But just generating them is the same as simply using a regular GCD except it costs you more mana which isn't a loss until you run out which shouldn't happen unless a lot of people are dying.

Edit: I think I know why it's a dps loss now gunna recheck the posts later.

[Endariel]

Did they change how Eukrasia works while I was away? Enhancing your spells is not a dps loss it equates to a regular GCD.
Eukrasia is a 1 second GCD recast with the spells it effects being 1.5 second recasts making it a regular 2.5 recast like any other spell.



Correct me if I'm wrong but their generation is only a dps loss if you were to run out of mana because of generating them otherwise they're dps neutral.
2 targets being a dps gain.

But just generating them is the same as simply using a regular GCD except it costs you more mana which isn't a loss until you run out which shouldn't happen unless a lot of people are dying.

Edit: I think I know why it's a dps loss now gunna recheck the posts later.

it's a dps loss because you spend an entire gcd on a barrier that instead of casting dosis 3

[EaMett]

This was my impression as well. The problem with this idea though is that Sage already has so many mobility options that it doesn’t really need the extra movement in the first place. Between Dosis slide-casts, Phlegma charges, Eukrasian Dosis and even putting up Eukrasian Diagnosis / Prognosis, you already have a lot of options, so a lot of the time it ends up not being worth applying the shield even if you do need to move, because the potency is only equal to Dosis, and it’s rare you’ll be moving so frequently that you literally cannot devote 1.5s to Dosis lol. I think increasing the potency of Toxicon is the best way to address that; lowering the dps penalty for using it would do a lot to make the Addersting mechanic feel less restrictive. That way there’s meaningful decision making in using Toxicon over Dosis other than ‘I want to lower my own dps’ lol

There's almost always downtime in fights to apply E.diag without losing a gcd. You can often simply start fights with 2 if not 3 stacks outright. It was designed for you to manage stacks for mobility (probably tuned for savage since there's hardly any mobility required in the current fights). I think it works great as is and doesn't need a buff at all.
Phlegma and E.dosis are the only other two tools, and for the most part, you'll only have one phlegma available most of the time, and melee range might not be available to you. So toxikon really becomes key and fills that void. (And that's without even considering add phases)

[rewd]

So, being serious here... as a WHM main who is deeply enjoying SGE, and who has been talking to some friends who've struggled with the new job, there's something I know they stumbled with that I feel like it's worth noting. I don't know whether it's where you're having issues, Sturm, but it might be more generally useful to other folks even if not.

Nearly all of sage's AoE mitigation/buff options are entirely viable for single-target scenarios, such as dealing with the tank's damage during a big pull.

Already used Haima, so it's on cooldown? Panhaima makes a great backup! Yeah, Panhaima's only 6 stacks of 200 potency mitigation (the initial shield, plus the five 'backup' charges it puts on as a stacked buff to reapply the shield when it's depleted) instead of 300 potency, but that's still 1200 potency of mitigation on the tank for up to 15s, which honestly is a respectable single-target shield.

(As a bonus, it's also mitigation on all the DPS, in case they stand in the bad.)

Kerachole's just flat out 15s of 10% damage mitigation -- it's the same mitigation as Taurochole, as an AoE. (Minus Taurochole's up-front healing, replaced with a regen.)

Physis II is 650 potency of AoE regen healing over 15 seconds, but it also gives a 10s buff that increases all incoming healing by 10%; tossing that down for a little extra 'oomph' when a tank's seeming a bit squishy can really help buff your other healing.

Holos is only 300 potency of AoE heal, which seems pretty tiny... but it's also 20 seconds of 10% damage mitigation, which isn't nothing during a trash pull. You can throw that one down even if only the tank will benefit from the mitigation.

The fact that I have this veritable buffet of mitigation options -- even if some are AoEs rather than single target -- makes me feel like I have more than enough kit on sage to deal with basically anything. Possibly beyond what's reasonable.

This is how every healer works, so it's quite weird that this needs to be said.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Reading this thread and seeing how many sages are spamming their gcd heals on sage in dungeons is….i’m so happy i main a healer even with how boring it is, because it means i don’t need to be paired with people spamming gcd heals lmao

[HyoMinPark]

Correct me if I'm wrong but their generation is only a dps loss if you were to run out of mana because of generating them otherwise they're dps neutral.
2 targets being a dps gain.

But just generating them is the same as simply using a regular GCD except it costs you more mana which isn't a loss until you run out which shouldn't happen unless a lot of people are dying.

Edit: I think I know why it's a dps loss now gunna recheck the posts later.

Toxicon is a DPS loss because you sacrifice a GCD to cast Eukrasian Diagnosis over Dosis III, and a Toxicon isn’t potent enough to make up the lost Dosis III cast. It is only DPS neutral if there is downtime within a fight for you to cast E.Diagnosis while a boss is untargetable.

[Packetdancer]

This is how every healer works, so it's quite weird that this needs to be said.

I don't think it's quite as true of White Mage as you might think.

Of White Mage's AoE healing/mitigation options, really only Temperance and Aslyum are still viable/worthwhile for dealing with tank-only damage during big pulls. Plenary Indulgence's Confession buff requires an AoE heal to pop, so it isn't terribly useful in trash pulls. The new lilybell only procs when the white mage takes damage, so for healing up just the tank it's only useful if you let it run down the full 12 seconds and then toss out the 'use leftover stacks as heal' expiration. If you've got a lily for Rapture, you've got a lily for Solace, so why are you using it on Rapture in a single-target-heal situation? Medica II isn't worthwhile in a single-target heal situation; you've got Regen for that. Cure III... just no.

(Assize might help, sure, but it's a damage ability with a healing side-effect; chances are it's already been mashed on cooldown.)

Someone whose primary healer experience is white mage is probably not going to instinctively go straight to "AoE mitigations are viable in single-target healing situations" as a conclusion when playing sage, and I suspect that's where the problem crops up for many.