Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

[Silver-Strider]

Not really. He showed up in Sharlayan and was like "Hey guys, where's my WoL at? Oh? Space? Cool, guess I'm heading there then. Later!" The only reason he gave us a hand was because we weren't going to give him his rematch if we were dead.

Zenos was our most dedicated Simp. Took us to dinner, gave us a new perspective on life and crossed the entire universe just to get stepped on. If it wasn't so creepy, it would almost be admirable but Simps always gotta come off creepy.

[Vahlnir]

Took us to dinner, gave us a new perspective on life and crossed the entire universe.

If not for the context, this would sound almost wholesome. lol

[Lauront]

The thing is, even though Emet believes us, he says himself he needs to assist us due to his duty for the star, in the odd chance we are telling the truth. Him and Hythlo also both remark they know they were mind wiped, they can feel it. It’s as simple as her saying yes you were mind wiped. This is why. x,x, and x is happening etc.


I dont really agree with this. People act like they were sacrificing people every other day lmao. They had only sacrificed people a total of two times. A 3rd was on its way however it should be noted based on Emer's short story, they were extremely split on the decision. It's unlikely after the 3rd set they would continue to sacrifice to him, at that point what would they even be sacrificing for? They'd have everything back.

I also don't agree with what you're responding to, but I think the main reason they wanted them out of Zodiark, besides missing their own, is that they placed particular importance on being able to return to the star when the time was right and it's not clear they'd be able to do so while part of Zodiark.

And story wise, our characters and the game world would cease to exist if they had been allowed to intervene, not that they had much time to actually do anything anyway. So it would make sense that it would be more about saving the future than a doomed past. If they wanted to go about it your way, they'd have created an alternate timeline. I suppose that can't really be ruled out. Who knows, maybe the writers will get bored and want to try something new somewhere down the line. But if it's not done right it would be an absolute failure.

I think that is the real reason, tbh. That, plus they didn't want to spend too much time putting in the narrative work to get Emet and Venat to reconcile, thus time travel supplying her with some rationale that may well have been lacking in the first instance. I wouldn't say no to such an AU one day.

[EaraGrace]

The vast majority did, since the story is written in such a way as to conveniently have the protagonists overcome whatever is sent their way for the most part with minimal losses. If not for the Warrior of Light, Limsa would have been wiped off of the map by the likes of Leviathan and Titan. Or at least heavily damaged. The antagonists not having the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, however, ensures that their story is far more tragic as those that they're in opposition to. There's heavier stakes, more meaningful losses and extensive damage.

In general, I sympathise more with genuine underdogs rather than those who position themselves as such despite not really losing much by comparison.

I'm also not sure why it would be 'insulting' either. Insulting to who, exactly? Putting aside the simple fact that none of the characters are real, nobody is obligated to like or dislike specific fictional entities. Especially if we're seeking to be entertained.

For example, I was indifferent to Moenbryda so it felt forced to me that she's brought up so often, especially when everybody else is expected to 'move on' and not seek vengeance (but somehow it's conveniently fine for the Scions to cry and scream and threaten to take revenge on someone they care about).

Emotional manipulation as a storytelling device doesn't work on me, either. I had a big grin of disbelief on my face as the Scions were 'sacrificing' themselves because it was obvious none of them were actually going to die, so it all felt like meaningless padding and the same sort of fake stakes that have made many Hollywood movies bland and predictable.

So, yeah, I'm not going to pretend as if the Scions' losses are anywhere near as tragic, drastic or relevant as entire civilisations/planets being wiped out completely. Others are free to think differently, of course - but I doubt there's going to be a consensus when there's a global audience with people from all sorts of different countries, backgrounds and belief systems. Different characters and factions resonate and appeal in a varied manner with that in mind.

See here is where I think we’ll ultimately never agree. You didn’t feel moved by the events that Scions experienced and don’t feel a deep connection with them. I do. So to me, what I played through was not emotional manipulation in the slightest but good writing. This is at the end of the day a subjective take on things and thus I don’t think we’ll ever convince the other.

[EaraGrace]

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so

The point of Venats plan, a plan Emet and Hythlo agree with once they remember everything, are that relying on a deity to solve all your problems will at the end be self defeating, and that what is needed is a response to despair. You inevitably will have to face suffering, and the Ancients, who have shown no willingness to accept that, would fail. Zodiark doesn’t solve the problem, he buys time.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The point of Venats plan, a plan Emet and Hythlo agree with once they remember everything, are that relying on a deity to solve all your problems will at the end be self defeating, and that what is needed is a response to despair. You inevitably will have to face suffering, and the Ancients, who have shown no willingness to accept that, would fail. Zodiark doesn’t solve the problem, he buys time.

They faced suffering though. It was in their everyday lives it wasn’t something foreign to them from what we know especially from the short stories.Dunno where you see they showed no willingness to accept that, it was moreso due their their civilization style it wasn’t as common an occurrence as it is with sundered. As i said before he buys time yes, for them to be able to solve the issue. Also i don’t know if Emet and Hythlo specifically agree to the deity part, if it’s the end portion of EW you’re meaning, as much as it is helping the sundered is the only way to keep the planet from being killed by Meteion. In the end though Venat relied on a deity to help solve her problems so it rings a bit hollow in that regard. Even we, the WoL have relied on primals for things. Look at Eden and even the end of EW when we literally have primals summoned.

[Awarewolf]

Weird place to comment this, but I’m starting to think humanity is a simulation. An organic one. And we are plugged into it, got stuck, and can’t escape. So we hop into these avatars (human bodies) for another chance to wake up, but we fail, we die, and our soul has to make a new avatar. And I think the powers that be in this world (insert your favorite secret conspiracy organization here) know this, and are capitalizing on it, doing everything in their power to distract us in every way possible, to keep us from waking up. Because why be a normal person in Heaven when you can rule in this simulated Hell?

So every story I read lately, or in this case every RPG I play, reflects this theory at its core, in some way. I find it fascinating.

Anyway, not saying it’s true, I don’t know anything. Just a theory right now, but it’s a damn good one that explains a lot about the nature of reality and a pan dimensional existence.

[Vyrerus]

Scionic Suffering List

TL;DR - The Scions have actually suffered less than most every other person introduced in the story

Thancred the orphan who was taken in by one of the most advanced societies on the planet by one of its smartest, most prolific members raised into adulthood as a street savvy turned book savvy ladies' man? The one who is respecting his adoptive daughter's sacrifice, and will likely see the other again because it's a happy story? I would add that he lost his aetheric adeptness due to Y'shtola, but the story solved that for him with new aethereyte design in Endwalker / by just pretending really hard that it doesn't much impact his combat prowess leaning hard on the, "Thancred is a Bad Ass" line of reasoning.


Y'shtola who was raised by another of one of the most advanced societies brightest intellects, one who she bonded with as a mother and mentor? Who gained a prodigious superpower, natural aether sight, by losing her natural eyesight? Who will likely 100% find a way to get back to Runar?

Urianger was in the Waking Sands. The WoL is the sole witness to Moenbryda's sacrifice. His guilt stems from NOT being there when she went through with it. Those parents embraced him warmly, and bade him to forgive himself. He likely hasn't, but he is on the way to doing as much.

Do all of the Baldesion Arsenal or Choose Krile's way, and Ejika Tsunjika is also a survivor of the order. As is his cousin. She lost her adoptive father and others close to her, once, as a loss unique to her.

Alphinaud and Alisaie left home by choice and engage in war by choice. They are also adults by Sharlayan standards. Not sure where you get that they lost, "many friends." Alphinaud has the loss of some Crystal Braves and the earlier side Scions on his mind, but Alisaie's only really lost Tesleen. They both lost Louisoix, who they seem to love more openly than their own father, but they got time to say a final farewell to him as he imparted some final wisdom to them in The Binding Coil (which is much more than most who lost loved ones at Carteneau ever got).

Tesleen was specifically for Alisaie character development. Not a major character at all, really.

Papalymo chose to sacrifice himself, as did Ysayle. The story flipped from respecting such actions to decrying them.

Compare to G'raha Tia and Estinien...

Estinien lost his whole family to Nidhogg as a child. His mother, father, siblings, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. No family for Estinien. Ysayle was growing to be a woman he admired, perhaps it would have lead to a love blossoming in his chest, but she was lost to him, too. He has seen many of his fellow dragoons and Ishgardians struck down during the course of the decades long end of the Dragonsong War. He lost his body and mind to Nidhogg from 3.0 till 3.3 transcending mankind to become a dragon soul hybrid whose thoughts and memories are intertwined with Nidhogg's forever.

G'raha Tia awoke to a future where he'd lost all of the people he'd ever known, save Cid, Nero, and the Ironworks. He then watched them age and die, as he lived on tied to the tower. He was then sent back in time, leaving behind everyone he knew, the Ironworks descendants, to live a hundred more years in a post apocalyptic setting where he raised a Viera as his daughter while shepherding an entire society at the base of the Syrcus Tower. He has seen boat loads of people give their lives defending that society from the Sin Eaters. He lost part of himself by merging with his past self, because while the identities reconciled so that we wouldn't lose the man, it's clear that the memories from Post Apocalypse G'raha supersede and impose upon his existence. Past G'raha hasn't much to add other than his youthful body. He also potentially lost his daughter forever, much in the vein of what you sum up for Thancred, but it's likely that Y'shtola's Runar marriage path will lead them both back to be able to see them.

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Basically, with two or three exceptions, the Scions are pampered protagonists who haven't experienced the suffering the setting portrays for the unimportant masses and antagonists. They have their shares of woes, some more than others, but they basically get the best possible ending they could get in spite of such things.

Compare and contrast with real life suffering, while mildly unfair to a piece of fiction it serves to show the absurdity that these are the folks who will forever, "Defeat Despair."

I've lost a lot of extended family over the years, but last year I lost my mother to pancreatic cancer. I was in the room when she gasped her last breath, and her final words and act in life were to grip my brothers' hands and yell, "Please God, help me!" Her eyes went vacant less than ten minutes later, but everyone was too afraid to call it. The hospice worker we had assisting with her care was forced to call it some half hour later, because the shock of it was far too overwhelming for us, my brothers and fathers and sisters in law.

What followed was the all of us, trying to talk about the good times. The good way she lived, while trying and failing to choke back tears. My brothers and father drank heavily, my oldest brother so heavily that he fell over repeatedly and down the stairs twice. I personally felt as though I'd been struck somehow in the chest by a club, just above the solar plexus, like my chest was going to come apart from an invisible pain. I was too afraid to drink, for fear that I might self-destruct. I still feel the loss of my mom everyday, and I don't think it's ever going away.

The Scions rarely convey that they've felt that type of loss, even if they are of the few who have. It's a hard sell to me to feel like they've walked with despair, as they mostly spurn it at every turn or are shielded from it entirely.

[Pintsized]

The message is the WoL has plot armor and always prevails

No sh*t Sherlock .. by definition the game only exists as long as WoL does.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Just wanted to say sorry for your loss, i hope you’re doing better now. I do agree with you a lot and i think it’s one of my biggest problems with this expansion. The entire theme is loss, with the main lyrics being loss fire and faith. It’s about despair and suffering so it’s hard to take the scions seriously when they really haven’t suffered as much compared to virtually anyone else, yet somehow are just immune to despair. I think at the very least it would’ve been a nice touch to see some of them almost turn and WE have to go and talk sense into them to calm them down, as a way of helping solidify our relationships with them. But as it stands they’re just untouchable immortal people who hardly have to struggle and suffer while everyone else does and then they go and preach and preach to other people. It just comes off to me as really shoddy. I do find it funny though how in HW they had that entire storyline of Yshtola’s aether slowly draining her life, and that just literally hasn’t ever been mentioned again. Once again, immortal scion who doesn’t have to suffer.