Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

[EaraGrace]

Gotta say, some of these arguments are frustrating. Only G’raha and Estinien suffered really?

Not Thancred, the orphan boy forced to steal to survive, who just buried his adoptive daughter and had to say goodbye to another potentially forever?

Not Y’shtola, the young girl separated from her family who grew up in a cave studying magic, has lost her eyesight and now is separated from someone she clearly cares for deeply?

Not Urianger, who watched his closest friend and love die tragically in an act of selfsacrifice and has been guilt ridden over ever since, to the point of being ashamed to see her parents, some of the only family he has left?

Not Krile, whose the only survivor of the destruction of her order and has lost her closest friends over and over?

Not Alphinaud or Alisaie, who left home as teenagers and have experienced more war in those few years since than one should experience in a lifetime, lost many of their friends and people around them to horrific circumstances and betrayal, were disowned by their father and watched their grandfather pass on?

And that’s not even including the deaths of Tesleen or Papalymo or Ysayle.

Like cmon.

[Theodric]

Gotta say, some of these arguments are frustrating. Only G’raha and Estinien suffered really?

Not Thancred, the orphan boy forced to steal to survive, who just buried his adoptive daughter and had to say goodbye to another potentially forever?

Not Y’shtola, the young girl separated from her family who grew up in a cave studying magic, has lost her eyesight and now is separated from someone she clearly cares for deeply?

Not Urianger, who watched his closest friend and love die tragically in an act of selfsacrifice and has been guilt ridden over ever since, to the point of being ashamed to see her parents, some of the only family he has left?

Not Krile, whose the only survivor of the destruction of her order and has lost her closest friends over and over?

Not Alphinaud or Alisaie, who left home as teenagers and have experienced more war in those few years since than one should experience in a lifetime, lost many of their friends and people around them to horrific circumstances and betrayal, were disowned by their father and watched their grandfather pass on?

And that’s not even including the deaths of Tesleen or Papalymo or Ysayle.

Like cmon.

I'm not sure why that would be 'frustrating' since most of that 'suffering' took place in the past and isn't remotely comparable to the extent of the suffering endured by the majority of the antagonists.

I think it's pretty safe to suggest that it's a bigger deal for someone to lose their entire family, their friends, their neighbours, their pets and their culture/society as a whole.

It's perfectly possible to sympathise with individual losses, of course, but it comes across as narcissistic preaching for the Scions to claim to have lost 'so much' when things have gone their way more often than not and everything ultimately wraps up in a neat little bow with minimal lasting consequences. As such, much of the 'burdens' they are speaking about are applicable to other people and nations.

On your list, only Krile really comes close to that and she wasn't present during the game's final stretch by virtue of not really being much of a fighter.

[EaraGrace]

I'm not sure why that would be 'frustrating' since most of that 'suffering' took place in the past and isn't remotely comparable to the extent of the suffering endured by the majority of the antagonists.

I think it's pretty safe to suggest that it's a bigger deal for someone to lose their entire family, their friends, their neighbours, their pets and their culture/society as a whole.

It's perfectly possible to sympathise with individual losses, of course, but it comes across as narcissistic preaching for the Scions to claim to have lost 'so much' when things have gone their way more often than not and everything ultimately wraps up in a neat little bow with minimal lasting consequences. As such, much of the 'burdens' they are speaking about are applicable to other people and nations.

On your list, only Krile really comes close to that and she wasn't present during the game's final stretch by virtue of not really being much of a fighter.

Yes, I do agree that if we compare immortal beings millennia old to people who live for less than a century and die, that in terms of total traumatic events one will eclipse the other.

But, and perhaps this is subjective, suffering is not a point value like XP. The Ancients that have made comments in the subject look at the short lives the sundered have and remark on how it’s a more difficult existence than their own. Some are awed by the strength of people to continue moving forward. Others, like the unsundered, look at the sundered as beings subjected to unworthy, painful lives, better off dead in the end. If both sides can make those judgements given all they’ve suffered, and given their clear disagreement on the worthiness of those lives, there must be more to this than simply a numbers comparison.

For the rest of the antagonists I would push back against the idea that they all suffered so dearly that comparisons between them and the Scions are insulting or laughable.

[Theodric]

For the rest of the antagonists I would push back against the idea that they all suffered so dearly that comparisons between them and the Scions are insulting or laughable.

The vast majority did, since the story is written in such a way as to conveniently have the protagonists overcome whatever is sent their way for the most part with minimal losses. If not for the Warrior of Light, Limsa would have been wiped off of the map by the likes of Leviathan and Titan. Or at least heavily damaged. The antagonists not having the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, however, ensures that their story is far more tragic as those that they're in opposition to. There's heavier stakes, more meaningful losses and extensive damage.

In general, I sympathise more with genuine underdogs rather than those who position themselves as such despite not really losing much by comparison.

I'm also not sure why it would be 'insulting' either. Insulting to who, exactly? Putting aside the simple fact that none of the characters are real, nobody is obligated to like or dislike specific fictional entities. Especially if we're seeking to be entertained.

For example, I was indifferent to Moenbryda so it felt forced to me that she's brought up so often, especially when everybody else is expected to 'move on' and not seek vengeance (but somehow it's conveniently fine for the Scions to cry and scream and threaten to take revenge on someone they care about).

Emotional manipulation as a storytelling device doesn't work on me, either. I had a big grin of disbelief on my face as the Scions were 'sacrificing' themselves because it was obvious none of them were actually going to die, so it all felt like meaningless padding and the same sort of fake stakes that have made many Hollywood movies bland and predictable.

So, yeah, I'm not going to pretend as if the Scions' losses are anywhere near as tragic, drastic or relevant as entire civilisations/planets being wiped out completely. Others are free to think differently, of course - but I doubt there's going to be a consensus when there's a global audience with people from all sorts of different countries, backgrounds and belief systems. Different characters and factions resonate and appeal in a varied manner with that in mind.

[EaraGrace]

The vast majority did, since the story is written in such a way as to conveniently have the protagonists overcome whatever is sent their way for the most part with minimal losses. If not for the Warrior of Light, Limsa would have been wiped off of the map by the likes of Leviathan and Titan. Or at least heavily damaged. The antagonists not having the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, however, ensures that their story is far more tragic as those that they're in opposition to. There's heavier stakes, more meaningful losses and extensive damage.

In general, I sympathise more with genuine underdogs rather than those who position themselves as such despite not really losing much by comparison.

I'm also not sure why it would be 'insulting' either. Insulting to who, exactly? Putting aside the simple fact that none of the characters are real, nobody is obligated to like or dislike specific fictional entities. Especially if we're seeking to be entertained.

For example, I was indifferent to Moenbryda so it felt forced to me that she's brought up so often, especially when everybody else is expected to 'move on' and not seek vengeance (but somehow it's conveniently fine for the Scions to cry and scream and threaten to take revenge on someone they care about).

Emotional manipulation as a storytelling device doesn't work on me, either. I had a big grin of disbelief on my face as the Scions were 'sacrificing' themselves because it was obvious none of them were actually going to die, so it all felt like meaningless padding and the same sort of fake stakes that have made many Hollywood movies bland and predictable.

So, yeah, I'm not going to pretend as if the Scions' losses are anywhere near as tragic, drastic or relevant as entire civilisations/planets being wiped out completely. Others are free to think differently, of course - but I doubt there's going to be a consensus when there's a global audience with people from all sorts of different countries, backgrounds and belief systems. Different characters and factions resonate and appeal in a varied manner with that in mind.

See here is where I think we’ll ultimately never agree. You didn’t feel moved by the events that Scions experienced and don’t feel a deep connection with them. I do. So to me, what I played through was not emotional manipulation in the slightest but good writing. This is at the end of the day a subjective take on things and thus I don’t think we’ll ever convince the other.

[Vyrerus]

Scionic Suffering List

TL;DR - The Scions have actually suffered less than most every other person introduced in the story

Thancred the orphan who was taken in by one of the most advanced societies on the planet by one of its smartest, most prolific members raised into adulthood as a street savvy turned book savvy ladies' man? The one who is respecting his adoptive daughter's sacrifice, and will likely see the other again because it's a happy story? I would add that he lost his aetheric adeptness due to Y'shtola, but the story solved that for him with new aethereyte design in Endwalker / by just pretending really hard that it doesn't much impact his combat prowess leaning hard on the, "Thancred is a Bad Ass" line of reasoning.


Y'shtola who was raised by another of one of the most advanced societies brightest intellects, one who she bonded with as a mother and mentor? Who gained a prodigious superpower, natural aether sight, by losing her natural eyesight? Who will likely 100% find a way to get back to Runar?

Urianger was in the Waking Sands. The WoL is the sole witness to Moenbryda's sacrifice. His guilt stems from NOT being there when she went through with it. Those parents embraced him warmly, and bade him to forgive himself. He likely hasn't, but he is on the way to doing as much.

Do all of the Baldesion Arsenal or Choose Krile's way, and Ejika Tsunjika is also a survivor of the order. As is his cousin. She lost her adoptive father and others close to her, once, as a loss unique to her.

Alphinaud and Alisaie left home by choice and engage in war by choice. They are also adults by Sharlayan standards. Not sure where you get that they lost, "many friends." Alphinaud has the loss of some Crystal Braves and the earlier side Scions on his mind, but Alisaie's only really lost Tesleen. They both lost Louisoix, who they seem to love more openly than their own father, but they got time to say a final farewell to him as he imparted some final wisdom to them in The Binding Coil (which is much more than most who lost loved ones at Carteneau ever got).

Tesleen was specifically for Alisaie character development. Not a major character at all, really.

Papalymo chose to sacrifice himself, as did Ysayle. The story flipped from respecting such actions to decrying them.

Compare to G'raha Tia and Estinien...

Estinien lost his whole family to Nidhogg as a child. His mother, father, siblings, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. No family for Estinien. Ysayle was growing to be a woman he admired, perhaps it would have lead to a love blossoming in his chest, but she was lost to him, too. He has seen many of his fellow dragoons and Ishgardians struck down during the course of the decades long end of the Dragonsong War. He lost his body and mind to Nidhogg from 3.0 till 3.3 transcending mankind to become a dragon soul hybrid whose thoughts and memories are intertwined with Nidhogg's forever.

G'raha Tia awoke to a future where he'd lost all of the people he'd ever known, save Cid, Nero, and the Ironworks. He then watched them age and die, as he lived on tied to the tower. He was then sent back in time, leaving behind everyone he knew, the Ironworks descendants, to live a hundred more years in a post apocalyptic setting where he raised a Viera as his daughter while shepherding an entire society at the base of the Syrcus Tower. He has seen boat loads of people give their lives defending that society from the Sin Eaters. He lost part of himself by merging with his past self, because while the identities reconciled so that we wouldn't lose the man, it's clear that the memories from Post Apocalypse G'raha supersede and impose upon his existence. Past G'raha hasn't much to add other than his youthful body. He also potentially lost his daughter forever, much in the vein of what you sum up for Thancred, but it's likely that Y'shtola's Runar marriage path will lead them both back to be able to see them.

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Basically, with two or three exceptions, the Scions are pampered protagonists who haven't experienced the suffering the setting portrays for the unimportant masses and antagonists. They have their shares of woes, some more than others, but they basically get the best possible ending they could get in spite of such things.

Compare and contrast with real life suffering, while mildly unfair to a piece of fiction it serves to show the absurdity that these are the folks who will forever, "Defeat Despair."

I've lost a lot of extended family over the years, but last year I lost my mother to pancreatic cancer. I was in the room when she gasped her last breath, and her final words and act in life were to grip my brothers' hands and yell, "Please God, help me!" Her eyes went vacant less than ten minutes later, but everyone was too afraid to call it. The hospice worker we had assisting with her care was forced to call it some half hour later, because the shock of it was far too overwhelming for us, my brothers and fathers and sisters in law.

What followed was the all of us, trying to talk about the good times. The good way she lived, while trying and failing to choke back tears. My brothers and father drank heavily, my oldest brother so heavily that he fell over repeatedly and down the stairs twice. I personally felt as though I'd been struck somehow in the chest by a club, just above the solar plexus, like my chest was going to come apart from an invisible pain. I was too afraid to drink, for fear that I might self-destruct. I still feel the loss of my mom everyday, and I don't think it's ever going away.

The Scions rarely convey that they've felt that type of loss, even if they are of the few who have. It's a hard sell to me to feel like they've walked with despair, as they mostly spurn it at every turn or are shielded from it entirely.

[Rulakir]

The Scions rarely convey that they've felt that type of loss, even if they are of the few who have. It's a hard sell to me to feel like they've walked with despair, as they mostly spurn it at every turn or are shielded from it entirely.

My condolences. I've lost a lot of family as well, including my parents. I've also been witness to the slow, painful deterioration that cancer causes. Having to watch from the sidelines helpless to do anything, conflicted between not wanting to lose them and wanting their suffering to end.

Coupled with my depression, maybe I've experienced too much trauma and grief to find EW's message or most of its characters relatable.