Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

[Vahlnir]

I know he is only after the fight but feel there might have been alittle more to that .

Not really. He showed up in Sharlayan and was like "Hey guys, where's my WoL at? Oh? Space? Cool, guess I'm heading there then. Later!" The only reason he gave us a hand was because we weren't going to give him his rematch if we were dead.

[Silver-Strider]

Not really. He showed up in Sharlayan and was like "Hey guys, where's my WoL at? Oh? Space? Cool, guess I'm heading there then. Later!" The only reason he gave us a hand was because we weren't going to give him his rematch if we were dead.

Zenos was our most dedicated Simp. Took us to dinner, gave us a new perspective on life and crossed the entire universe just to get stepped on. If it wasn't so creepy, it would almost be admirable but Simps always gotta come off creepy.

[Lauront]

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Compared to most other protagonists and antagonists they really haven’t suffered. Gaius never really switched sides, he even says even though we’re helping him with the weapons it doesn’t change anything and we have the dialogue option to say that as well. Raubahn isn’t really a scion. Lyse though yes that would count. But nothing really compares to the ancients’ millennia of suffering and trying to compare the scions to them is very strange. They’ve had most things handed to them on a silver platter with minimal loss.

Not even just the ancients - multiple stars' worth.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The ancients, specifically the unsundered, suffering was of their own making though. As with the defeat of Zodiark they were released from their tempering and their suffering.

How so? The final days wasn’t really their own doing, and they were suffering trying to bring back their loved ones. As we know, a primal being slayed doesn’t untemper someone so presumably the sundered ascians are still tempered. If you mean the souls within him then yes but i meant moreso the ancients as a whole.

[Lauront]

How so? The final days wasn’t really their own doing, and they were suffering trying to bring back their loved ones. As we know, a primal being slayed doesn’t untemper someone so presumably the sundered ascians are still tempered. If you mean the souls within him then yes but i meant moreso the ancients as a whole.

It's also nowhere confirmed that the ancients within Zodiark were tempered. That is specific to the summoners, and the lore directly before entering Ragnarok further undermines such claims as meaningful anyway. As for the ancients as a collective being to blame for the actions of one madman and his bird waifu? That's about as logical as blaming the entirety of the sundered if the Black Rose were to run rampant and consume the planet. Makes zero sense.

[Theodric]

It's also nowhere confirmed that the ancients within Zodiark were tempered. That is specific to the summoners, and the lore directly before entering Ragnarok further undermines such claims as meaningful anyway. As for the ancients as a collective being to blame for the actions of one madman and his bird waifu? That's about as logical as blaming the entirety of the sundered if the Black Rose were to run rampant and consume the planet. Makes zero sense.

Yep. Plus Tempering in itself has been shown to be very flexible. In some cases, it alters the mind and body completely. In others, it has very little or no influence over the actions of the individual. For example, Emet-Selch brought Y'shtola back from the dead which he would not have done if he was truly unable to do anything but work towards the restoration of Zodiark. Which, in itself, was simply a means to an end - Zodiark was but the method required to restore the Source to its original state.

[Caurcas]

How so? The final days wasn’t really their own doing, and they were suffering trying to bring back their loved ones. As we know, a primal being slayed doesn’t untemper someone so presumably the sundered ascians are still tempered. If you mean the souls within him then yes but i meant moreso the ancients as a whole.

Zodiark was their solution, and a solution that beget suffering whilst not solving the issue. It's tragic, but it is meant to be so. Furthermore, upon his defeat all ancients trapped within and the unsundered are implied to have been freed of tempering as Zodiark's tempering was different. Although these were souls rather than physical forms.

[Garnetiferous]

Zodiark was their solution, and a solution that beget suffering whilst not solving the issue. It's tragic, but it is meant to be so. Furthermore, upon his defeat all ancients trapped within and the unsundered are implied to have been freed of tempering as Zodiark's tempering was different. Although these were souls rather than physical forms.

What you're forgetting is that without the Ancients summoning Zodiark, the world dies in the first final days. The issue was more that after they summoned Zodiark to stop the final days and fix the world to the point where it was habitable again, the ancients wanted to sacrifice more to bring back the old days of paradise. Which is why Venat stepped in. But the ancients can't really be faulted for summoning Zodiark in the first place. It was probably the only solution they had at the time against an energy they didn't understand and didn't have time to learn to understand.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Zodiark was their solution, and a solution that beget suffering whilst not solving the issue. It's tragic, but it is meant to be so. Furthermore, upon his defeat all ancients trapped within and the unsundered are implied to have been freed of tempering as Zodiark's tempering was different. Although these were souls rather than physical forms.

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so

[RitsukoSonoda]

Zodiark saved them and the world. Were it not for him the world wouldn’t exist. I think the blame falls more upon the likes of Venat whom, if she had informed Hades and Hythlodaeus of the issues, Zodiark would’ve given them enough time to presumably solve the issue of Meteion. I guess you can argue that with Zodiark saving the world he in doing so caused suffering that otherwise wouldn’t exist since everyone would be dead but that’s essentially Meteion’s mindset so

It's also possible that Zodiark would have lead to the extinction of the ancients given that more of them were basically feeding themselves to it in hopes it would return the world to how it was before the end of days. They basically stopped looking to the future and wished to return to the past. Which by retaining the knowledge of Meteion's reports was a mindset that lead to the end of other worlds. So even if Zodiark had successfully restored the world to how it was before the end of days, the mindset created by the event would have likely lead to an end similar to other worlds meteion visited had experienced. Also given emet selch's initial reaction when the WoL informed them of the end of days it was likely reasoned providing that info after the memory wipe when no physical evidence was available wouldn't have accomplished anything.