Current EX trial completed without Healers

[Deceptus]

So you're saying if i stack 4 dancers and 2 reapers i can cover the role of 1-2 healers? Nevermind it's killing your LB generation for more damage/kills and no bonus stats for even more damage.

An entire role shouldn't be able to be disregarded in any content period, especially current content.

[Rilifane]

An entire role shouldn't be able to be disregarded in any content period, especially current content.

Completely agree.
I don't care if it was just an Ex, if they needed a certain comp or if they're really good players. The expansion is still fresh, those trials are still fresh, we're by no means overgeared and we can already do an endgame fight without a role.
It shouldn't be possible to complete an endgame fight without healers or tanks or dps, especially only weeks after it released.
I'm fine with dungeon runs being possible without a tank or a healer or dps. But if incoming damage in a current Ex trial is so low that 2 tanks and 6 dps can take care of it, something is seriously wrong. The damage there is so infrequent, we have up to 3min of no raid damage happening. None at all. The most exciting thing is, when the whole raid got snake baited before the stack.
It has mechanics suited for an Ex trial, it has a dps check (albeit a lenient one, as expected from a trial), it has tank busters you can't take with a non-tank without dying. And then there's next to non-existent incoming damage and nothing else that is even remotely healer specific.

If they want to cuddle baby healers in DF content, fine.
But healers should be expected to fulfill their role in endgame content and Ex is part of it, even if it's the entry level difficulty.

[Brandedblade]

An entire role shouldn't be able to be disregarded in any content period, especially current content.

The only thing I'm seeing from this is that dps healer utility is too powerful for those specific two jobs, the fact highly skilled players can negate the need for healing by stacking specific jobs and thus killing their LB generation does not mean "Omg healers are useless". YOu got to keep in mind a majority of players aren't playing at your gigachad level of skill.

[Saefinn]

The only thing I'm seeing from this is that dps healer utility is too powerful for those specific two jobs, the fact highly skilled players can negate the need for healing by stacking specific jobs and thus killing their LB generation does not mean "Omg healers are useless". YOu got to keep in mind a majority of players aren't playing at your gigachad level of skill.

Whilst feats like the one in the thread are nothing new and I agree that a job's core purpose shouldn't be negated, but this is one of those scenarios where it's not a regular group. Though I think it does draw attention to how crazy tanks changes can be. For sure having done that EX fight, I didn't feel useless as a healer, and I think it worked well with my kit. Though admittedly a fairly easy EX as we cleared early on in our second lockout and that may be a contributing factor to why those WAR could do it.

What did raise some red flags for me was doing the level 89 dungeon, I died early on during the second boss because I misread a mechanic. I wasn't needed for the whole fight. I've seen it happen 3 or 4 more times in general where the healer has died in EW. It used to be a thing in ShB too, we ran one of the late dungeons and the healer DC'd at the start and we made it all the way to the final boss before another showed up. And in each of these cases it wasn't that they were exceptional. But I think it ends up raising the question for the healer: was I really needed?
And I think it shows that for a chunk of this game's content that healers are just green DPS. And honestly, I think it'd be less of a complaint if there were the tools to compensate. Whilst I am happy with how SGE has turned out, I do feel this remains a bigger issue for the other healing jobs.

I wouldn't want to see them take it away from the tanks because it's another element to their job to make it interesting, but it inevitably will contribute to healer down time, so give healers more interesting stuff in their downtime. It seems a fair trade IMO.

[HappyHubris]

I wouldn't want to see them take it away from the tanks because it's another element to their job to make it interesting, but it inevitably will contribute to healer down time, so give healers more interesting stuff in their downtime. It seems a fair trade IMO.

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

[Saefinn]

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

I know he has, but basically they either can make the content suit the kit or the kit to suit the content. The problem with ShB was that they did not fit together, because the content said "DPS more" but the kit was better designed for a stronger healing requirement.

And it's not like YoshiP hasn't changed his mind before in light of community feedback. That said, I think I'd prefer the balance to be more in favour of healing more. But if we /must/ follow a 30:70 ratio of healingPS in most content like in Endwalker then give us more better DPS options. Though my general argument has been a mix of the two, so the entry barrier to healing remains low. SGE seems like it might be a good middle ground, but time will tell.

[HappyHubris]

I know he has, but basically they either can make the content suit the kit or the kit to suit the content.

Or Square can continue the status quo, which they are explicitly happy with.

I just treat healing as easy mode for farming now, instead of a fully-formed job.

[Saefinn]

Or Square can continue the status quo, which they are explicitly happy with.

I just treat healing as easy mode for farming now, instead of a fully-formed job.

Yeah, but I'm still going to keep giving feedback on how they can do better? Regardless of what they say they will and will not do.

[OtakuSempai]

YoshiP has already said that healers will never get more involved damage rotations, as poor players could be criticized for not doing enough damage on what is supposed to be a healing role.

I don't know that healing is very interesting for tanks; a lot of it is incidental to their play.

Then he needs to take a hard look at the state of the game now because the issue has only gotten worse with time.

While I think Yoshi is a genius in all manner of design and project management, I think he struggles to properly design healing/tanking while trying to get to everything else. I wish he would realize he needs dedicated staffing for the healing and tanking roles.

[RinaShinomiya]

Then he needs to take a hard look at the state of the game now because the issue has only gotten worse with time.

While I think Yoshi is a genius in all manner of design and project management, I think he struggles to properly design healing/tanking while trying to get to everything else. I wish he would realize he needs dedicated staffing for the healing and tanking roles.

The worst part about it is imo that Tanking isnt traditionally seen as a DPS job yet they had no issues whatsoever overhauling the tank materia in a less undesireable stat, overhaul enmity mechanics and remove the Damage penalty on tanking stances in order to allow tanks to DPS and Defend. In fact if you look at their mitigation skills they are largely the same. What makes these tanks truly unique from another is the DPS rotation.

Why cant healers have that? AST, SCH and SGE are already perfectly positioned to rely solely on their OGCD's during fights, but the DPS rotations are literally identical between the jobs.

Not to mention YoshiP's argument is flawed. A poor performing healer is already being scolded at despite only having 2 buttons to press. I had a boosted WHM cohealer in Titania recently (not EX mind you) and we lost the DPS check, despite being overgeared, because they did nothing but Cure I spamming the entire time. They didnt even use Lucid so they went OOM as well.

This entire notion that Healing role should be designed around the weakest players is just silly in general imo. Maybe if the game had a better tutorial system, esp for boosted players, maybe there wouldnt be so many poor performing healers running around. Maybe Tanking would be more popular due to not having anxiety over if your healer is paying attention or not. Just some food for thought.