This is getting ridiculous. (Endwalker MSQ and post MSQ spoilers)

[Kaurhz]

Frankly, i just think you and many others are giving out far too many excuses for the reality of the situation. But you can continue and be content with getting less each expansion, while me and many others will continue to question the developmental choices of the devs. In the end, if this community continues to be allergic to all forms of criticism, it’ll be the demise of the game eventually. Especially if we’re going to jump through hoops to excuse reusing gear from the very last expansion or from the same patch.

Frankly I think far too many people are setting themselves or establishing expectations which are very difficult and not pragmatic to reach by any realistic measure. Like I said, with each subsequent expansion the uptake of maintaining primal weapons just becomes exceedingly difficult, especially when no real formal precedent has been established for their release, and I would struggle to find anyone worth their salt that would set such a disoriented routine for their release as has been evident with these. Like I said, I'd love RPR Hades Weapons or any other for that matter like Tsukuyomi, but is it a realistic expectation? No it isn't because across the course of the game the amount of weapons they need to support just inflates. - I'd like to see many people, including yourself tackle something like this, to be frank.

Since it seems to have eluded you by any measure let me be clear that I myself am not allergic to criticism within the game itself. It just happens that I frankly disagree with your criticism and don't view it as something that should even be considered an urgency for them. It isn't like expansion launch and the initial weeks subsequent to it aren't the busiest or anything like that. Not at all (/s). I'm not in a position where I'm willing to echo chamber your criticism just for the sake of it. Not by a long shot. But hey, welcome to an open debate on the forums where people can and will disagree with you and not echo chamber your criticism. - I find it ironic that people even use this and 'white knighting' as an example as if their criticism is the only valid criticism, or as if their criticism takes higher precedent than other pieces of criticism. I don't agree with you, it's as simple as that, I'm not defending just pointing out perfectly logical reasons why something like this exists in the first place. - I've seen quite a bit of double standard-ing on this thread "Oh no, god forbid they reuse these assets. God forbid - Ohh, but it's also OK if they reuse Ivalician/Woad, or any other set that I personally like"

There's a myriad of issues and things with this game that they should work on long before they should even consider cowering to the people that aren't happy they reuse assets. Despite the very fact that it is a long established practice within development. Like, I'd take something that deviates from the square room deep dungeon crawler escapade they've had for both previous iterations of said content, long before I even bother crying about reused models (Which is already an established practice practically within every studio that creates such an extensive game). Similarly, I'd take something like Island Sanctuary which may feel like it's brimming with life that could otherwise just be a desolate and pathetically weak excuse at releasing gardening for those that don't own a personal plot, I'd take this long before I even cry about the reused assets early in an expansion.

I'll criticise them on this when I actually see for myself when those resources have gone as opposed to just outright crying because they didn't reach some arbitrary quota of yours in the short term. - and once again just because people aren't willing to echo chamber your criticism it does not mean they are immune or deflect all forms of criticism. It seems this level of critical thinking is a lost relic in the subtle art of creating a productive discussion.

I find it quite funny that people are criticising the developers for something that may not even be within their realm of control. Enjoy finding a team of developers that can overcome a potentially stringent budget. Even then, a higher budget assigned to a particular division might not necessarily mean the particular increase in budget is assigned to a particular team. That excess in budget could quite as easily be given to the battle designers more-so than it could to those that from art and gear design. Just a simple reality. A higher budget won't automatically equate to all areas of the game seeing an increase in quality. Of course beyond this we get more into a subjective realm of what people view as good or bad - and given their position I would argue they know better than random joes on the forums and their baseless claims -> and that isn't a defence versus just highlighting the complexities of budgeting, which is applicable to any organisation

[Y2K21]

Like I said, I'd love RPR Hades Weapons or any other for that matter like Tsukuyomi, but is it a realistic expectation? No it isn't because across the course of the game the amount of weapons they need to support just inflates. - I'd like to see many people, including yourself tackle something like this, to be frank.

Yes, it is a realistic expectation, because they literally made SAM/RDM Primal Weapons and released them during the 4.0 patch lifecycle. They did the same thing for DRK/AST in Heavensward. The problem people have is that GNB/DNC literally have only received ONE Primal weapon from previous content in the Extreme Shinryu --and thats it from Patch 5.2. The standard was already made by the game developers themselves -- if you cant continuously keep the same standards relative as you add more jobs, it leads to two questions:

1) Is the issue based upon team size/productivity? (A budget/team size issue)
2) Is this an issue with number of jobs vs. number of primals? (A long-term planning issue)

Seeing as Team 2 has put an effort (marginally) introducing a GNB/DNC weapon in 5.2 -- I would assume its A. We cant use the excuse of Covid/Endwalker/etc. for things that missing in 5.0.

[Kaurhz]

Yes, it is a realistic expectation, because they literally made SAM/RDM Primal Weapons and released them during the 4.0 patch lifecycle. They did the same thing for DRK/AST in Heavensward. The problem people have is that GNB/DNC literally have only received ONE Primal weapon from previous content in the Extreme Shinryu --and thats it from Patch 5.2. The standard was already made by the game developers themselves -- if you cant continuously keep the same standards relative as you add more jobs, it leads to two questions:

1) Is the issue based upon team size/productivity? (A budget/team size issue)
2) Is this an issue with number of jobs vs. number of primals? (A long-term planning issue)

Seeing as Team 2 has put an effort (marginally) introducing a GNB/DNC weapon in 5.2 -- I would assume its A. We cant use the excuse of Covid/Endwalker/etc. for things that missing in 5.0.

Like I said RPR/SGE would require upwards of 36-38 new models in addition to the ones for the previous expansion - This number growing upwards of 46-48 if you include the 'future' crafted variant from the ShB extreme trials, next expansion in 7.x? Well that'd be upwards of the high-50s in terms of jobs, and all of these would need to be fairly new assets from the ground-up. Given jobs never existed in previous expansions. This is why I call it untenable and an unrealistic expectation because that implementation just grows more tiresome with each subsequent expansion, and these are resources that would ultimately be best suited elsewhere. When I mentioned standard it was in relation to them keeping a routine with regards to how and when they're released, something that isn't necessarily a trend as of yet. It's inconsistent. Check the pattern for yourself it's barely there when you make a basis for comparison with every other piece of content. They've released them very randomly, to be frank. We got Suzaku/Seiryu before Zurvan and Byakko. Comparatively Sophia and Sephirot were released way back in SB. The level of planning on what is released and when is essentially playing raffle. - That was my point with standards.

Finally, a point that I don't necessarily disagree with. Given the above I would just argue that if they have time to do it, or something - Then they shall. Otherwise sayonara. In other words developing primal weapons for old encounters where original models don't exist is bottom of the barrel with this list of priorities.

[Y2K21]

Like I said RPR/SGE would require upwards of 36-38 new models in addition to the ones for the previous expansion - This number growing upwards of 46-48 if you include the 'future' crafted variant from the ShB extreme trials, next expansion in 7.x? Well that'd be upwards of the high-50s in terms of jobs, and all of these would need to be fairly new assets from the ground-up.

And thats fair -- but the problem is that they already set themselves up with a standard on it. This can all be solved with that simple statement of that by someone in that team, and this entire point is now moot and understandable. The problem is: they havent, and have virutally be silent on the fact.

When I mentioned standard it was in relation to them keeping a routine with regards to how and when they're released, something that isn't necessarily a trend as of yet. It's inconsistent. Check the pattern for yourself it's barely there when you make a basis for comparison with every other piece of content. They've released them very randomly, to be frank. We got Suzaku/Seiryu before Zurvan and Byakko. Comparatively Sophia and Sephirot were released way back in SB. The level of planning on what is released and when is essentially playing raffle. - That was my point with standards.

See its funny, since none of these didnt even come out until patches 5.3/5.4/5.5 -- which is even funnier considering that GNB and DNC still didnt get weapons for them; but did get weapons for Shinryu in 5.2.

Again, consistency is key. You cant earnestly release one thing during the life of an expansion then just not do it for the others -- come on. Thats inexcusable, they should be receiving weapons designed for Primals during at least their own expansion.

Finally, a point that I don't necessarily disagree with. Given the above I would just argue that if they have time to do it, or something - Then they shall. Otherwise sayonara. In other words developing primal weapons for old encounters where original models don't exist is bottom of the barrel with this list of priorities.

The problem is lack of communication:

Heavensward: All new jobs get Primal weapons previously and withing their own expansion's timeframe
Stormblood: All new jobs get Primal weapons previously and within their own expansion's timeframe
Shadowbringers: All new jobs dont get previous Primal weapons and get only get one in 5.2 (disregarding Hades, since Hades is Shadowbringers content).

Thats a heavy and noticeable dip in quality without explanation. Sure, making 30+ different weapon models is a bit of a reach....but 8? Especially since they were being released during your own expansion meaning development was during the same time? Come on, you cannot defend that.

[Kaurhz]

snip.

I'm fairly sure they have made a statement regarding primal glamour weapons in the past, but this is not something I have the time to check back with every interview (Thus take it as heresay) - But my memory serves me in that it was stated a developer was doing it in their spare time. - Regardless though, I don't think they generally expect or feel the need to actually release a statement on primal weapons, given there are more interesting things to query about- But by all means pose the question when they next elect to do a Q/A.

Indeed, but as I have stated the order in which these are released are seemingly very random. Again, referring to the order with which they were released. - Almost as if there has been no other plan barring someone having spare time.

Sure - I don't necessarily disagree with the point in consistency. The whole reason we're having this discussion is because consistency is non-existence, and as I have mentioned on this thread once, if they cannot or couldn't reliably do this from the get-go then primal crafted weapons should never have existed in the first place. Seemingly, initially they wanted to make additional use out of the primal items aside from being a material for furniture or a barding.

They cannot communicate every little change or struggle and if I am to be quite frank they shouldn't need to communicate this. If enough people care about this then the question would repeatedly be submitted for a Q/A and thus would likely get answered. If it hasn't then people have more pressing matters they want to query.

Yes and your list perfectly highlights the issue behind it. if they wanted to continually develop primal weapons for past expansions then the model count would increase significantly. Number of classes is 2, number of trials per expansion with crafted weapons is around 5 (SB). Let's say they wanted to develop GNB/DNC weapons for SB this would require developing 10 weapon models for jobs that simply didn't exist, and as I've said with each subsequent expansion this becomes more difficult.

Want GNB/DNC to have HW weapons? Well that's an additional 7. That now becomes 14 weapons. For DNC/GNB across HW/SB that becomes 24. Now let's say you want to introduce ARR weapons into the mix? that's an additional 10 weapons models. Care to do the maths for EW weapons? - Now we can come into the conundrum of "Why not just make weapon models for the respective trials to be released through that expansion?" (e.g. give RPR/SGE weapons from the Sorrows of Werlyt + WoL trial) - Sure that's more tenable. But then people in this thread will only resort to the tactic of complaining that they aren't doing it for all the trials of the previous expansion, or crying that it's still a sloppy approach - Which sure I don't necessarily disagree but all that is being accomplished is people shifting the post of their complaint from all trials to sloppy.

I don't defend their absence, contrary to how my post is coming across. My defence/argument wrests on the simple fact people are just crying about it and chalking it up to the developers being money hungry (maybe they are) piggies, and lazy developers, despite having not the feintest clue of what they do, or do not do day to day. We can argue that 'dip' in quality has just been placed elsewhere in the expansion. - Once again we go back to the whole point of the scope of argument being incredibly narrow. You can argue dip in this scope. I can argue increase in another scope. For example, I could argue no other expansion has seen 2 sets of flashy relic tools (relic tools on top of the resplendent/blessed tools) - So yes I could reasonably make the defence, especially when the original argument is done on the basis of trying to highlight a decrease in content, or a half-baked attempt at calling the developers lazy.

tl;dr on my last point: I don't defend the absence of the weapons. I defend the difficulty of the undertaking to maintain this standard with each subsequent expansion, especially seeing as from HW right up until now we've seen a wider scope of content delivery in the game. In this sense I also argue against the point that we're seeing less and less content (that is when you manage to broaden your scope)

[Y2K21]

-snip-

Sorry, but your entire argument falls apart by me mentioning 4 things:

-Flamekissed Weapons (Patch 5.3)
-Moonlit Weapons (Patch 5.3)
-Demon Weapons (Patch 5.4)
-Enspirited Weapons (Patch 5.5)

All weapons released in Shadowbringers and developed after Ephemeral Weapons in Patch 5.2. You argue order matters, but it never did before and if the weapons are also being developed/released the same expansion as new job -- there isnt a reason for why they do one weapon, then never do anymore after. This wasnt an issue in SB where Samurai and Red Mage got Sepherot in 4.1 and Nidhogg in 4.4.

[Kaurhz]

Sorry, but your entire argument falls apart by me mentioning 4 things:

-Flamekissed Weapons (Patch 5.3)
-Moonlit Weapons (Patch 5.3)
-Demon Weapons (Patch 5.4)
-Enspirited Weapons (Patch 5.5)

All weapons released in Shadowbringers and developed after Ephemeral Weapons in Patch 5.2. You argue order matters, but it never did before and if the weapons are also being developed/released the same expansion as new job -- there isnt a reason for why they do one weapon, then never do anymore after. This wasnt an issue in SB where Samurai and Red Mage got Sepherot in 4.1 and Nidhogg in 4.4.

Except my argument in relation to the order is not that it matters for whether weapons are or aren't released for newer jobs, but rather the order with which they're released is indicative of something that doesn't necessarily have any formal standard for how and when they are released - Which was to highlight the point that it is at the bottom of their priorities and likely something that doesn't necessarily fit into their project management schedule. e.g. Why are we getting Byakko weapons after Suzaku and Tsukuyomi, despite the former being released before the latter, and why are Demonic weapons released 2 expansions after their initial release? As you've so conveniently put out.. Sephirot in 4.1, and Sophia in 4.5.. then an entire expansion worth between.. we see Zurvan?

As my follow-up comment specified.

Almost as if there has been no other plan barring someone having spare time.

My comment was meant to highlight how sporadically they are released. Not imply that the reason you aren't getting them because they predate the launch of the new jobs. My entire argument has always boiled down to them potentially not having enough time, and/or it just simply being a very low priority for them to develop new models for older trials when they are only considered a 'nice to have' - Sure they've historically done this in the past, arguable when those doing it potentially had more time to dedicate to it. With this in mind I don't really think there's anything valuable that can come out of this discussion