This is getting ridiculous. (Endwalker MSQ and post MSQ spoilers)

[Kaurhz]

I’m not even talking about things like deep dungeon or bozja. Even things as simple as voice acting in the alli raids and trial series was missing. Primal weapons for Gnb and Dnc were missing. A second pvp set. An end of expansion set.

If you can send me an exact number of how many scenes overall were voiced from one expansion to the other. That being inclusive of both story, raids, and alliance. If you can give me an exact metric from this then I'll be inclined to agree with you, otherwise for the time being I will maintain my stance that the MSQ of Shadowbringers probably has as much voice acting from previous expansion story/raid combined. Again though, here we go on with the useless trug of introducing items in certain areas for the sake of maintaining an established number. They aren't obligated to have 2 PvP sets. We got a tonne of glamour and emotes introduced in the Firmament, mounts included in fact, similarly some added in via Ocean Fishing. Not even neglecting the fact we saw the introduction of crafter relics in addition to the routine blessed tools.

Like to be frank the only argument I'm seeing from you here is that you're unhappy the routine isn't there and ignoring items that were introduced in other areas of content. Speaking of which I don't recall Ivalice dungeons ever dropping 2 minions per raid, Modern Aesthetics, nor glamour coffers and housing items, do you? Because I certainly don't, and I certainly recall the YorHa raid doing exactly that. This is the problem with your point of view. It's so narrow that you can make arguments on a case-by-case basis whilst ignoring the bigger picture.

I've already said my point on primal weapons. In that if they're developed because someone has spare time then they shouldn't exist to begin with. Given the astonishingly poor level of consistency and routine with these weapons I think it's reasonable to infer that they probably aren't developed in work hours.

[KizuyaKatogami]

If you can send me an exact number of how many scenes overall were voiced from one expansion to the other. That being inclusive of both story, raids, and alliance. If you can give me an exact metric from this then I'll be inclined to agree with you, otherwise for the time being I will maintain my stance that the MSQ of Shadowbringers probably has as much voice acting from previous expansion story/raid combined. Again though, here we go on with the useless trug of introducing items in certain areas for the sake of maintaining an established number. They aren't obligated to have 2 PvP sets. We got a tonne of glamour and emotes introduced in the Firmament, mounts included in fact, similarly some added in via Ocean Fishing. Not even neglecting the fact we saw the introduction of crafter relics in addition to the routine blessed tools.

Like to be frank the only argument I'm seeing from you here is that you're unhappy the routine isn't there and ignoring items that were introduced in other areas of content. Speaking of which I don't recall Ivalice dungeons ever dropping 2 minions per raid, Modern Aesthetics, nor glamour coffers and housing items, do you? Because I certainly don't, and I certainly recall the YorHa raid doing exactly that. This is the problem with your point of view. It's so narrow that you can make arguments on a case-by-case basis whilst ignoring the bigger picture.

I've already said my point on primal weapons. In that if they're developed because someone has spare time then they shouldn't exist to begin with. Given the astonishingly poor level of consistency and routine with these weapons I think it's reasonable to infer that they probably aren't developed in work hours.

I wouldn’t say it’s a “useless trug.” Minions and mounts we also got from Eureka,Rathalos,Hildibrand, etc in SB. Along with an entire housing district. I’m really not in a narrow pov it’s just a pov you don’t seem to agree with. As for primal weapons, they were able to give sam and rdm 50/60/70 primal weapons aka what is that? 20/30+ weapons? Yet somehow we go from that to 0 for dnc and gnb and 0 again for sage and reaper? Or how about dnc and gnb not even getting unique ultimate weapon models when rdm and sam did for an ultimate. I can do this comparison all day, fact of the matter is we are indeed getting less. YorHa raid had more effort and time put into it because it was a collab. Irregardless though, my overall point of this post was reusing gear and i’d rather we not derail. Fact is, we’re seeing the worst amount of gear reusing than we’ve seen in an expansion, and it’s happening in an expansion that was delayed for 7 months. I don’t know how else i can explain it. There’s no excuse for it period. Especially no excuse for the lack of transparency on the issue.

[Kaurhz]

snip.

Yes we also saw the development of an entire housing district as a continual process as opposed to just the end produce which added a nice element to it, something we're getting this expansion in addition to Island Sanctuary, Deep Dungeon, and their usual content on top of that, seems quite a fun filled and content heavy expansion, especially since relics are still in the air. Hate to break it to you but Rathalos was also a collaboration. We could apply that same argument for anything introduced within it. You're right, I don't agree with your outlook, simply because you're only making the point that they haven't produced the same number of things in the area from a previous expansion, and like I said this is because it's a disingenuous outlook to the expansion which discredits the areas in which they tried to innovate with their content.

Something like that is always risky but I would rather have that potentially disappointment factor than to advocate for something that will essentially lead to a them no longer being able to innovate for the fear of people crying they never got the same number of dungeons or the same number of PvP sets. It's like.. You can cry about Hildibrand and Rathalos and then in return I can just point you to BLU which saw a significant amount of incentivisation through the use of rewards locked behind raiding on it, in addition to the Faux Hollows and Shared FATEs. Like come on.. - I can do this all day too, and night, and including the following day if you like. You saying something is fact does not indeed make it fact, taking into considering the poor basis for comparisons you've been doing in the case of voice acting, for example. (Did you know Shadowbringers base story has around 10 hours worth of voice acting, comparatively, Stormblood only has around 7 hours, comparatively Heavensward has approx. 5 hours, and ARR only around 3-4 hours) - and I find it absolutely hilarious you're here brining in raid voice acting as an example for cut content, laziness, and poor practices.

It is a narrow point of view not because I disagree with it. It is a narrow point of view because I can apply your logic to any argument both for and against, and make a fairly valid point if you look only exclusively at 1 piece of particular content.

In case my point has yet to hit here, something for the sake of something is not good, it is bitter and stale. Hildibrand for the sake of Hildibrand is boring, and that started to show for me quickly. Deep dungeon for the sake of Deep Dungeon is not interesting. Dungeons for the sake of dungeons is not either.


Like I said on the matter of primal weapons. Given their consistency and lack of structure I would stand to argue that they probably don't even have a standardisation for it. E.g. someone is probably doing it in their spare time. The release of these weapons have been all over the place since their inception - Simply put, they should never have existed in the first place because of this. You see the problem here is that the development time and cost very quickly becomes untenable for primal weapons. For each following expansion they will have increasingly more weapons to support. It's just not a realistic expectation, and yes this comes from someone that wanted a Hades crafted RPR weapon. - Would I love it? definitely. But I'm not going to get vitriolic about something that isn't even tenable. - For as much as you criticise them on this. I'd like to see you or anyone on this forum be tasked with each new expansion heading development for up to 38 weapons across 2 classes for old and dated encounters. Something like that is very low on someone's radar. As it would be for anyone with a sense of responsibility. For Reaper to get weapons from 50/60/70/80 , that would be around 18/19 encounters from memory, aka 36-38 weapons. Not exactly a realistic expectation. Then an additional 32 or so weapons for GNB/DNC. - Now if you call this not ideal I'd stand by you and agree with you. If you call this a development oversight that should never have existed or have a set precedent (because clearly there is none), then I'd agree with you - But anyone coining this as lazy obviously doesn't understand nor appreciate the undertaking, so to call it no effort, or lazy is a bad joke, at best.

It's not that I disagree with the underlying point but your posts seem to be grossly oversimplifying the amount of work and return on investment for developing weapons in older trials/crafted for new jobs, especially in the long run.

On your argument of reusable assets, I find it comedic at best. It's just pragmatic in any development scene to reuse assets than it is to constantly always invent the wheel for every single dungeon or crafted piece. Having looked into Heavensward I can say it's equally as bad if not worse than any other expansion for reusables. If they find a particular set of gears that already exist that appropriately fit the theme of the dungeon then they're going to reuse that asset, very simply really. Given what we know of Radz-at-Han (the mansuya; something like bonewicca is perfectly suited. Similarly, take a look at the theme of Ktisis Hyperboreia and the circumstance surrounding it, you'll find a very limited scope of gear that adequately fits the bill - E.g. something like Woad gear makes no sense here, nor in Tower of Zot). It's just the classic idiom of don't reinvent the wheel when something appropriately fits the bill already - Care to tell me why the expansion was delayed by 7 months?

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

Frankly, i just think you and many others are giving out far too many excuses for the reality of the situation. But you can continue and be content with getting less each expansion, while me and many others will continue to question the developmental choices of the devs. In the end, if this community continues to be allergic to all forms of criticism, it’ll be the demise of the game eventually. Especially if we’re going to jump through hoops to excuse reusing gear from the very last expansion or from the same patch.

[Kaurhz]

Frankly, i just think you and many others are giving out far too many excuses for the reality of the situation. But you can continue and be content with getting less each expansion, while me and many others will continue to question the developmental choices of the devs. In the end, if this community continues to be allergic to all forms of criticism, it’ll be the demise of the game eventually. Especially if we’re going to jump through hoops to excuse reusing gear from the very last expansion or from the same patch.

Frankly I think far too many people are setting themselves or establishing expectations which are very difficult and not pragmatic to reach by any realistic measure. Like I said, with each subsequent expansion the uptake of maintaining primal weapons just becomes exceedingly difficult, especially when no real formal precedent has been established for their release, and I would struggle to find anyone worth their salt that would set such a disoriented routine for their release as has been evident with these. Like I said, I'd love RPR Hades Weapons or any other for that matter like Tsukuyomi, but is it a realistic expectation? No it isn't because across the course of the game the amount of weapons they need to support just inflates. - I'd like to see many people, including yourself tackle something like this, to be frank.

Since it seems to have eluded you by any measure let me be clear that I myself am not allergic to criticism within the game itself. It just happens that I frankly disagree with your criticism and don't view it as something that should even be considered an urgency for them. It isn't like expansion launch and the initial weeks subsequent to it aren't the busiest or anything like that. Not at all (/s). I'm not in a position where I'm willing to echo chamber your criticism just for the sake of it. Not by a long shot. But hey, welcome to an open debate on the forums where people can and will disagree with you and not echo chamber your criticism. - I find it ironic that people even use this and 'white knighting' as an example as if their criticism is the only valid criticism, or as if their criticism takes higher precedent than other pieces of criticism. I don't agree with you, it's as simple as that, I'm not defending just pointing out perfectly logical reasons why something like this exists in the first place. - I've seen quite a bit of double standard-ing on this thread "Oh no, god forbid they reuse these assets. God forbid - Ohh, but it's also OK if they reuse Ivalician/Woad, or any other set that I personally like"

There's a myriad of issues and things with this game that they should work on long before they should even consider cowering to the people that aren't happy they reuse assets. Despite the very fact that it is a long established practice within development. Like, I'd take something that deviates from the square room deep dungeon crawler escapade they've had for both previous iterations of said content, long before I even bother crying about reused models (Which is already an established practice practically within every studio that creates such an extensive game). Similarly, I'd take something like Island Sanctuary which may feel like it's brimming with life that could otherwise just be a desolate and pathetically weak excuse at releasing gardening for those that don't own a personal plot, I'd take this long before I even cry about the reused assets early in an expansion.

I'll criticise them on this when I actually see for myself when those resources have gone as opposed to just outright crying because they didn't reach some arbitrary quota of yours in the short term. - and once again just because people aren't willing to echo chamber your criticism it does not mean they are immune or deflect all forms of criticism. It seems this level of critical thinking is a lost relic in the subtle art of creating a productive discussion.

I find it quite funny that people are criticising the developers for something that may not even be within their realm of control. Enjoy finding a team of developers that can overcome a potentially stringent budget. Even then, a higher budget assigned to a particular division might not necessarily mean the particular increase in budget is assigned to a particular team. That excess in budget could quite as easily be given to the battle designers more-so than it could to those that from art and gear design. Just a simple reality. A higher budget won't automatically equate to all areas of the game seeing an increase in quality. Of course beyond this we get more into a subjective realm of what people view as good or bad - and given their position I would argue they know better than random joes on the forums and their baseless claims -> and that isn't a defence versus just highlighting the complexities of budgeting, which is applicable to any organisation

[BaconBits]

? What do you mean. Glamour is 90% of what people do for endgame.

Can confirm, grabbed the healer robe from the new raids instead of a maiming chest piece solely because I thought it was pretty. I do hope they come up with some more menacing outfits as we delve further into Pandaemonium, wasn't expecting all of the roles to get cute white robes in a place as foreboding as it is.

[Y2K21]

Like I said, I'd love RPR Hades Weapons or any other for that matter like Tsukuyomi, but is it a realistic expectation? No it isn't because across the course of the game the amount of weapons they need to support just inflates. - I'd like to see many people, including yourself tackle something like this, to be frank.

Yes, it is a realistic expectation, because they literally made SAM/RDM Primal Weapons and released them during the 4.0 patch lifecycle. They did the same thing for DRK/AST in Heavensward. The problem people have is that GNB/DNC literally have only received ONE Primal weapon from previous content in the Extreme Shinryu --and thats it from Patch 5.2. The standard was already made by the game developers themselves -- if you cant continuously keep the same standards relative as you add more jobs, it leads to two questions:

1) Is the issue based upon team size/productivity? (A budget/team size issue)
2) Is this an issue with number of jobs vs. number of primals? (A long-term planning issue)

Seeing as Team 2 has put an effort (marginally) introducing a GNB/DNC weapon in 5.2 -- I would assume its A. We cant use the excuse of Covid/Endwalker/etc. for things that missing in 5.0.

[Kaurhz]

Yes, it is a realistic expectation, because they literally made SAM/RDM Primal Weapons and released them during the 4.0 patch lifecycle. They did the same thing for DRK/AST in Heavensward. The problem people have is that GNB/DNC literally have only received ONE Primal weapon from previous content in the Extreme Shinryu --and thats it from Patch 5.2. The standard was already made by the game developers themselves -- if you cant continuously keep the same standards relative as you add more jobs, it leads to two questions:

1) Is the issue based upon team size/productivity? (A budget/team size issue)
2) Is this an issue with number of jobs vs. number of primals? (A long-term planning issue)

Seeing as Team 2 has put an effort (marginally) introducing a GNB/DNC weapon in 5.2 -- I would assume its A. We cant use the excuse of Covid/Endwalker/etc. for things that missing in 5.0.

Like I said RPR/SGE would require upwards of 36-38 new models in addition to the ones for the previous expansion - This number growing upwards of 46-48 if you include the 'future' crafted variant from the ShB extreme trials, next expansion in 7.x? Well that'd be upwards of the high-50s in terms of jobs, and all of these would need to be fairly new assets from the ground-up. Given jobs never existed in previous expansions. This is why I call it untenable and an unrealistic expectation because that implementation just grows more tiresome with each subsequent expansion, and these are resources that would ultimately be best suited elsewhere. When I mentioned standard it was in relation to them keeping a routine with regards to how and when they're released, something that isn't necessarily a trend as of yet. It's inconsistent. Check the pattern for yourself it's barely there when you make a basis for comparison with every other piece of content. They've released them very randomly, to be frank. We got Suzaku/Seiryu before Zurvan and Byakko. Comparatively Sophia and Sephirot were released way back in SB. The level of planning on what is released and when is essentially playing raffle. - That was my point with standards.

Finally, a point that I don't necessarily disagree with. Given the above I would just argue that if they have time to do it, or something - Then they shall. Otherwise sayonara. In other words developing primal weapons for old encounters where original models don't exist is bottom of the barrel with this list of priorities.

[Exosapien]

Especially if we’re going to jump through hoops to excuse reusing gear from the very last expansion or from the same patch.

It's not as if there's nothing new. I'd agree with you if even most things were reused assets, but they aren't. Dungeon sets being reused wont make or break the game as long as we're getting things where they count.

[ReynTime]

They reuse monster models to a ridiculous degree too, why are people concerned about recycled assets NOW?
Even if you limit to Elite Marks... they have marks across 3 different expansions that are literally the same model with a recolor. Overworld monsters are basically 90% the same every expansion. Which is fine, not like they stand out in any way shape or form in how they behave anyway, even if different species, as overworld non-Elite mark monsters are just punching bags with a different skin.