Monk Positionals 6.0

[Miralyth]

They're both gameplay factors that oblige preemptive, and often sequenced, movement.

The context of my post, and what I was replying to, is the fun factor of positionals. Cast bars were being compared against them (although as the posts went on, I think the person speaking with me thought I was challenging something other than fun factor). Setting aside the fact that fun factor is completely subjective and up to the individual, utilizing cast bars executes differently than positionals. That was the point of me disagreeing with the poster. I agree, both are prone to the base concern of interruption - however, the circumstances and timing to which they're interrupted, as well as the way the player executes or plans these actions, are certainly not identical. My point still stands that they feel different to the player, which was the keyword that I used (feel).

If you want to challenge my statement, you'd have to pick apart that keyword, and stopping at the mere component of being interrupted would be a wholly unfair way to argue it. There are many more components to compare how a mechanic feels than being interrupted. Hence, not exactly the same.

Edit: I just want to reiterate that I think there was a misunderstanding in the discussion I had with that poster. I made several attempts to explain my intent, but I understand that this is a heated thread and that frustrations are running high in here, so I get it if assumptions are made. I really don't want to risk getting into another conversation where snippets of a post are quoted and debated out of context or intent. My reply to you is justifying my post against someone who probably wasn't even trying to debate the same thing I was, which makes it all the more silly for me to try and explain my position over and over.

[ssunny2008]

Wouldn't this be the opposite, now that Ninjutsu has two charges and is therefore bankable? Outside of saving for TA, you'd want to save them for relative mobility... which amounts to thinking about uptime and disengages.

I think you misunderstood my statement a bit. To use them for mobility or at times you´ve to disengage is what makes them superior BECAUSE they´re range tools. E9s for example made a difference if the boss used widerange or anti air first. You needed to get used to both of it on MNK. On NIN you just use your Raiton if needed, no matter what appears first. The timing doesn´t have to be perfect and you don´t have to think about it like "SSS? FS? Chakra? Is the timing still perfect?!", just delay your Mudra.

[Shurrikhan]

I think you misunderstood my statement a bit. To use them for mobility or at times you´ve to disengage is what makes them superior since they´re range tools. E9s for example made a difference if the boss used widerange or anti air. You needed to get used to both of it on MNK. On NIN you just use your Raiton if needed, no matter what appears first. The timing doesn´t have to be perfect and you don´t have to think about it like "SSS? FS? Chakra? Is the timing still perfect?!", just delay your Mudra.

But that is still an interaction. They're a tool the situational value of that is wasted unless kept for that situation. That's a hell of a lot better than, say, how DRG or RPR deal with melee-downtime.

[ssunny2008]

But that is still an interaction. They're a tool the situational value of that is wasted unless kept for that situation. That's a hell of a lot better than, say, how DRG or RPR deal with true downtime.

Yeah it is, but for me personally it´s far away from being interactive gameplay, when you´ve superior tools for pretty much everything. That´s a major reason why i dropped SAM after playing it for a while. You´ve everything, you can easily adjust to everything. It´s an absolutely standard class with everything you want on a melee + tons of DPS and that´s what makes it actually broken.
I would always prefer some rare or unique stuff like SSS / FS then getting everything served on a silvertablet like superior ranged tools or the perfect dash-combo. (And away from the Mudra interaction, NIN is just 123 too...)

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah it is, but for me personally it´s far away from being interactive gameplay, when you´ve superior tools for pretty much everything. That´s a major reason why i dropped SAM after playing it for a while. You´ve everything, you can easily adjust to everything. It´s an absolutely standard class with everything you want on a melee + tons of DPS and that´s what makes it actually broken.
I would always prefer some rare or unique stuff like SSS / FS then getting everything served on a silvertablet like superior ranged tools or the perfect dash-combo.

Same, for the most part. Which is a largely of why I was a bit baffled by the changes to Melee DDs' ranged attacks; you don't have to adjust your rotation at all to have completed a combo the moment before the disengage, but instead need only slap your ranged attack key until you can come back.

I'd prefer, for instance, that Stardiver were a roll-over GCD that could invulnerability-frame physical AoEs (or at least those not targeting the Dragoon). It'd give an interaction to compete against simply using it within Lance Charge. Give Chaos Thrust (Chaotic Spring) back its duration and Buff Piercing Talon, possibly even having it upgrade into Dreadwyrm so you could use that for downtime once per X seconds, but make Piercing Talon itself situational, rather than something spammable.

I'd prefer if Enpi and Yaten were stronger in their own right and the Enpi bonus thus reduced, and that Enpi again broke combos.

As for Reaper, I don't know, but Harpe wherever/whenever isn't it, imo.

NIN, though, I'm fine with having more tools that most other jobs and paying for that with (macro)rotational complexity. It's problem to me right now is simply that it has no string-by-string rotational complexity; everything's at the per-minute level.

[IruruCece]

Edit: I just want to reiterate that I think there was a misunderstanding in the discussion I had with that poster.

I understood your context just fine. I just think the premise of your argument sucked initially, and it sucked again when you tried to re-explain it.

[Miralyth]

I understood your context just fine. I just think the premise of your argument sucked initially, and it sucked again when you tried to re-explain it.

Cherry picking and weaving straw mans from what I said to address a separate narrative does not mean you understood. Alternatively, it means you understood and decided to use my post as an unrelated podium instead of expressing your thoughts outright. Either way, I'm sorry that what I find fun "sucks" for you.

[Mikey_R]

The context of my post, and what I was replying to, is the fun factor of positionals. Cast bars were being compared against them (although as the posts went on, I think the person speaking with me thought I was challenging something other than fun factor).

The thing is, you cannot use 'fun' as an objective standard as it varies from player to player.

I did go back and skim the first few posts in this line and it seems, whilst you do enjoy Monk, the positionals were not fun, mainly because of boss moving where you cannot predict and so you lose the positional.

It was also compared to cast times, in that, it is an inherent mechanic in a role that restricts movement. You claim these two cannot be the compared as they are not the same, or at least, they don't 'feel' the same. Well, of course they don't 'feel' the same, otherwise they would be the same mechanic and not worth comparing, however, if you take them to the base fundamentals:

- They both restrict movement in some way
- They both require fight knowledge in order to properly utilise them

It is this second point that I want to address as this is where the majority of the nuance comes in. With fight knowledge, you know what the boss is about to do, you can then plan how you want to handle this mechanic. For positionals, it is about, is the boss going to randomly turn, in most raid settings, people are stacked up behind the boss, so is it really random where they will face? Can I pre-position myself to maximise positional uptime when he does a predictable spin, if a mechanic comes out and I have to disengage, can I manoeuvre myself in such a way that when I re-engage, I am at the correct positional etc. So many things come into play and I guarantee, when you know a fight, the boss spinning is not as random as you think it is.

With casting, it is a similar principle. Can I stand here whilst this mechanic goes on, do I need to start thinking about planning swiftcast/procs/etc. It is the same principle, knowing the boss pattern and rotation and using the tools granted to minimise the movement as much as possible. It is again all about pre-planning where you should be.

So really, at the very core, they are the same basic thing. Keeping uptime on a boss with minimal interruptions. They are, of course, going to 'feel' different, that is why each role has players that prefer one over the other and you even have ranged physical if you just want o ignore all that altogether, it is also why, in the roles themselves, they have varying degrees that this nuance matters. BLM being heavily reliant on standing still and getting it's casts off, from what I have heard, SMN has alot of instant casts, so they are very very mobile and RDM is somewhere inbetween. It is the same with Melee, Reaper, Ninja and Samurai all have a relatively low reliance on positionals, Dragoon has slightly higher and Monk was all they way at the top. Monk is essentially like Black Mage in this regard if we are going by mechanic load. However, with new Monk, it has all been ripped away and now, Melee do not have their 'Black Mage' equivalent.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing is, you cannot use 'fun' as an objective standard as it varies from player to player.

No one has argued otherwise. However, differentiating between what is "objective" or not as it regards job design is probably the most utterly useless undertaking one could ever attempt.

Yes, people have individual preferences. However, they do tend to have common patterns and compromises whose results are greater/better than would fit a "zero-sum" model of player preferences.

Perhaps there is someone who enjoys animation locks because, as in fighting games, they force one to be aware of incoming needs to move. Perhaps a greater number of people prefer responsiveness. Know what handily rewards the earlier group without pissing off the later? Cancelable casts.

That's the line of reasoning being used when arguing for design improvements, rather than merely shouting from the rooftops that such and such is subjective the moment any preference aligns with a utilitarian outcome that is opposed to their own personal preference. Not to say that's the case for you, but it certainly the norm when people attempt to shut down any conversation of design by framing any statistically held preference or design compromise as not objective.

[Mikey_R]

No one has argued otherwise. However, differentiating between what is "objective" or not as it regards job design is probably the most utterly useless undertaking one could ever attempt.

I was mainly referring to this quote here:

The context of my post, and what I was replying to, is the fun factor of positionals. Cast bars were being compared against them (although as the posts went on, I think the person speaking with me thought I was challenging something other than fun factor).

Of course, you cannot use fun as an objective measure, it is purely subjective. The problem is, alot of people are using the notion that, for them, positionals are, essentially, objectively bad and should be removed, which is not the case.

I also continue on from the discussion about comparing positionals to cast bars and how, while they are different mechanics, fundamentally, they are all about uptime on a boss in a given scenario which is quite restrictive. It is this problem solving that makes positionals subjectively fun for those that do find them fun.

I know I can sometimes find it difficult to get my thoughts and intents across, that is a fault of my own, so if any mis-communication has occurred, that is on me. But to make my view clear, the removal of positionals was a bad move. I would have tried with just the raptor positionals gone and made a judgement from there, but getting rid of Opo-opo straight away was a step too far.