Just a interesting artcile about FFXI (and XIV)

[Rydin]

You seem to be missing the reason why the jobs seemed imbalanced. Mobs have different strengths and weaknesses, and so do the jobs, obviously. When the weakness of one job meets the strength of the enemy, then efficiency is going on the down-slope. If the player is not adequately geared/skilled/willing to pull up the slack, then the job is naturally going to get a bad rep. Samurai was so popular because of the damage it could pull off versus Colibri. Before that, in my opinion, it didn't shine any more than any other DD.

I don't know if you clicked the link to my thread a couple posts back...
But without some kind of special objectives that can only be pulled off by certain classes.... then some classes will always go without love... just because the "Best" class rotates between 2 or 3... there will always be classes that get "No Love"
Imagine in FFXI if there were NM's that resisted "charm" yet it made it so the NM couldn't do a certain ability....
Then people wouldn't shun the beastmaster as much....
You see where Im going... there should be a reason to use every class or else it shouldn't be in the game
No point of putting classes in just to pad class count

[Xoo]

I don't know if you clicked the link to my thread a couple posts back...
But without some kind of special objectives that can only be pulled off by certain classes.... then some classes will always go without love... just because the "Best" class rotates between 2 or 3... there will always be classes that get "No Love"
Imagine in FFXI if there were NM's that resisted "charm" yet it made it so the NM couldn't do a certain ability....
Then people wouldn't shun the beastmaster as much....
You see where Im going... there should be a reason to use every class or else it shouldn't be in the game
No point of putting classes in just to pad class count

Beastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. The greatest and most fun EXP party I've ever led was BLM BLM WAR WAR DRG DRG killing Robber Crabs; They died sooo fast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.

[Rydin]

Beastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

[Xoo]

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

How is SE and/or design responsible for what you and others simply negate to do? You two both seem like the victims of a vicious cycle and train of thought: I got quick invites on Samurai, (because everyone thinks it's the best in all situations), and slow to non-existent invites on other jobs, thereby re-inforcing your belief that the jobs are imbalanced.

[Benediction]

How is SE and/or design responsible for what you and others simply negate to do? You two both seem like the victims of a vicious cycle and train of thought: I got quick invites on Samurai, (because everyone thinks it's the best in all situations), and slow to non-existent invites on other jobs, thereby re-inforcing your belief that the jobs are imbalanced.

lol sure it might be reinforced that way, but how many times have you been in a party (that you didn't form) and undesirable job vs desirable job were seeking and the leader (obviously) picked the diserable job? Your scope of reference seem to be only on what you experienced through forming parties, rather than step back and see the overall system.

[ChiefCurrahee]

Originally Posted by Xoo
Beastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

you mean kinda like how Ifrit is Gla con con thm thm thm thm thm or moogle is gla con con thm arc arc arc arc ?

Xoo you need to take a step back at look at how the player base at large operates. Player will choose the path of least resistance and stick with it in what ever they do.

Can Ifrit be defeated with a variety of set ups? Yep. is it easier? Nope. Are people open to it? mmm.... Not as much as you think. How long would you stay in an Ifrit PT if you set up was Gla Con Con Pgl Lnc Mar Arc Thm and it was taking 20+ mins to kill, or was a very hairy fight? 2/3 fiights tops?

It was the same in XI. And just so you know, I just didn;t sit aroudn in Jeuno waiting for an invite to come my way. I would actively recruit for parties. In fact the majority of my progressiion came from me forming my own parties. It was RARE that i would get an invite as a drg. And of course i'm talkign about the time before ToAU, and merit parties. I'm talkign about CoP and prior.

So you can chalk it up to players being lazy if you want, but there are things SE can do to balance the content to the classes.

for example. It's not that melee are poor performers in damage output on ifrit. It's the fact that in order for melee to be within attack range they are also in sear range and get hit often by it. then the fact that to keep up damage output combos are needed but it becomes too dangerous to perform those combos after a certain point on ifrit.

The solution: ranged attackers with high damage potential without the need of positional combos. Consequently this is the very reason why Arc is prefered over melee in moogle figth as well.

Design flaw or player laziness? I'm leaning more toward design flaw.

[Xoo]

honestly if one party make up is way easier... people are going to gravitate towards that and shun the other classes
Knowing that people aren't going to change... the fights could be made to encourage more varied groupings of classes

Flying all the way back to page 4, let me say this.

I believe not many groups ever strayed from the norm because:

A. Few people fully understand the capabilities of all the jobs.
B. Even fewer people can form a group that is aimed at the target's weakness.
C. Fewer still don't want to lead parties.
D. Not many are willing to go out on a guinea-pig party.
E. Word gets around fast as to what produces the biggest numbers, and proven once, becomes forever instilled as just awesome enough to inhibit further experimentation.

I've honestly been through some really retarded situations. Take for instance stun-pulling Imps (Imps again!) with BLM. I can't remember exactly why I was doing this, but I was doing it to try and alleviate the fact that no other job in the party was fit to do it. It wasn't the fastest EXP I've ever seen, but it wasn't at all bad either. Nobody left or complained because of it.

(Remembered why I was doing it! I didn't like soloing, and Black Mage wasn't highly regarded on imps, so I found a way to make myself useful - Pull, Rest MP, Firaga III?, Pull.)

[Benediction]

Beastmaster was intended to be a solo job, primarily. I'll have you know that just for fun, I made a group of RDM BRD BST BST PUP PUP once versus Greater Colibri. We had a blast. It's just the fact that, like it's been so many times now, people are lazy and rely on the cookie-cutter far too much.

You can argue here that the cookie cutter in this party was that: healer, DPS, tank (pets would tank). or, you can argue that the cookie cutter here was that you had a RDM healer. Why can't you have a WHM or SCH healer? Hell, even a SMN healer should be as effective as a RDM healer.

Balance... just sayin.

[Rydin]

You can argue here that the cookie cutter in this party was that: healer, DPS, tank (pets would tank). or, you can argue that the cookie cutter here was that you had a RDM healer. Why can't you have a WHM or SCH healer? Hell, even a SMN healer should be as effective as a RDM healer.

Balance... just sayin.

because then THAT would require some seriously innovative game design...
And the cost effective approach is to be only as innovative as you need to be to pull in as many subs as possible
i.e. developers want to put in less effort and yet appeal to more people
Thats why so many games clone a certain MMO

How is SE and/or design responsible for what you and others simply negate to do? You two both seem like the victims of a vicious cycle and train of thought: I got quick invites on Samurai, (because everyone thinks it's the best in all situations), and slow to non-existent invites on other jobs, thereby re-inforcing your belief that the jobs are imbalanced.

whether its the chicken or the egg... its got to stop somewhere...
And we are more likely to see a design change than a change in the mindset of players everywhere

[Benediction]

because then THAT would require some seriously innovative game design...
And the cost effective approach is to be only as innovative as you need to be to pull in as many subs as possible
i.e. developers want to put in less effort and yet appeal to more people
Thats why so many games clone a certain MMO

Several other MMO's did it, I'm sure SE could do it as well.

Cost effective or not... the amount of effort you put into your work has no bearing on how much you'll be paid at the end. Put in a little or a lot... you're still going to get paid for any work you do. But your effort has an effect on whether your product is attractive to subscribers.

So, put in a lot of effort > innovative product > sales for the company > recieve a promotion or fame > more money for you