On Venat's Role in the Story

[Adeacia]

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

[Veloran]

I think a lot of dislike of Venat's Endwalker story comes from sort of a misunderstanding of the fact that... well, you're not necessarily meant to think she was in the right, it was fully intended to be unclear and ambiguous if she did the just and right thing. You thinking she did terrible things and is not a hero, while not the only intended response, is one of the intended responses.

I'm not so sure how you reach that conclusion when the story effectively portrays her as an out-and-out hero. Again if we are meant to take any part of her scene during the Final Days literally, her speech is played as heroic even as she seemingly just kills a bunch of Zodiark worshippers. It's bizarre. I recognize that she herself says that her actions are unjustifiable, but on the other hand you say that her actions were objectively the necessary lesser evil and that all other alternatives would have been worse. Now, I don't think the story actually justifies that idea, but it certainty seems to pretend that it does.

I really don't consider Venat's decision to cause the Sundering "unjustifiable" after it's implied in the Elpis quests that the "beast" tribes were created by them.

The Ancients largely (And perhaps logically from a certain viewpoint) held to a standard that only their lives mattered but if they were poised to start routinely offering up mass sacrifices including sentient beings that were scarcely different from them aside from the amount of power/aether they held, I feel like they had it coming. Opening up a solution to the Final Days by enabling the people of Etheriys to wield dynamis was just another reason to go through with it.

Not to mention there's no guarantees their plan would've even worked; even moreso when we learn Zodiark was basically a hivemind of all the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to bring salvation following Elidibus' decision to cease being his heart, so what happens when those souls are replaced by those who are unwilling?

This argument doesn't work. Primarily, because modern sundered life is actually much much worse on the topic of "respecting life". They'll kill anything and everything if they have a reason for it, sometimes for no reason at all. Kill to consume, kill out of fear, kill out of hate, kill out of greed, nobody even thinks twice about killing plants and animals. At least before the Final Days the Ancients were hesitant to kill anything that had gained a soul. I mean the entire reason the beast tribes themselves are considered lesser life is because the Ul'dahns propagated that idea in order to enforce an economic stranglehold on trade by driving them out of the markets. Even WoL isn't clean on this front, how many people and animals has the player killed for dubiously necessary reasons? If the Ancients "had it coming", then the Final Days 2 should have just destroyed the current world.

As to the argument about Elidibus - He only left Zodiark to try and make peace with the Venat faction. Even assuming he couldn't just get back in and control it regardless of what the souls inside wanted like Fandaniel does, that was again only an issue that came about because of Venat.

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

And yet as I pointed out before, this justification results in a massive paradox that unwinds the entire plot.

You wrote up this whole giant thing about being mad about a video game and deliberately missed important facts just to prove your point or to make yourself more upset, not sure which.

I’m not going to write a whole thing refuting every point you made because I don’t have the time and it would be a wasted effort since there’s obviously no convincing you or Zodiark’s legal team on anything.

"You're wrong and I can easily prove this because the facts are on my side, but I just won't." Very convincing.

From the very beginning we knew that Hydaelyn broke Zodiark into pieces to put him in stasis. And with every calamity, a piece of him was returned. This happened 7 times, which means if the world was sundered any fewer times, then Zodiark would have been revived and the game would be over.

Why exactly does she even need to keep him in stasis? I'll set aside for a moment the specific issue how how many times he "totally needed" to be sundered for this to work given that we've had seven rejoinings and yet Hydaelyn's seals on him remained intact, but what was the actual point of even doing that? There are no more Ancients to sacrifice to get him to enact any reality-changing powers, the Ascians clearly (as a whole) intended to maintain his existence so there was no danger of the Final Days on that front, so why even sunder him and everyone else so much? It ultimately served no purpose.

The second is that the Allagan Empire which you mention as being the thing Venat went out to prevent was itself started and guided by Ascians as admitted by Emet-Selch, so that’s a very poor example to use.

The Ascians and Emet-Selch aided in the Allagan Empire's technological advancement, but this is not so relevant to the topic of their self-inflicted downfall and Xande's fall to nihilism. We have no reason to think that they controlled his mind and forced him to think that way and try to destroy the star.

[KageTokage]

This argument doesn't work. Primarily, because modern sundered life is actually much much worse on the topic of "respecting life". They'll kill anything and everything if they have a reason for it, sometimes for no reason at all. Kill to consume, kill out of fear, kill out of hate, kill out of greed, nobody even thinks twice about killing plants and animals. At least before the Final Days the Ancients were hesitant to kill anything that had gained a soul. I mean the entire reason the beast tribes themselves are considered lesser life is because the Ul'dahns propagated that idea in order to enforce an economic stranglehold on trade by driving them out of the markets. Even WoL isn't clean on this front, how many people and animals has the player killed for dubiously necessary reasons? If the Ancients "had it coming", then the Final Days 2 should have just destroyed the current world.

As to the argument about Elidibus - He only left Zodiark to try and make peace with the Venat faction. Even assuming he couldn't just get back in and control it regardless of what the souls inside wanted like Fandaniel does, that was again only an issue that came about because of Venat.

I suppose I just find the notion of a superior race getting decide whether you get to live or die on a whim and being powerless to have any say in the matter a bit...troubling, regardless of whether they were suffering less before the sundering.

I do feel like the whole situation is still missing some important bits of context on both the pro-Zodiark and pro-Hydaelyn sides of things that would make her decision seem like more of a net positive then the game potrayed it as, though. For all we know, they could've been intending to specifically sacrifice only the non-sentient creations.

[Cleretic]

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

Actually, I don't believe the time loop changed Venat's plan in any way. No part of it sounds like something she wouldn't do, just something she doesn't want to do. It's not like Emet-Selch of the time, who stubbornly sticks to process above all else and refuses to believe it doesn't help; Venat recognizes that this is something she'd do if she had no other option, she just hopes to find another option until that confrontation with the people making the second Zodiark sacrifice happen.

The reason she told so few people was because it was a deep, dark, unbelievable and depressing story, so she had to pick her allies carefully to avoid causing mass hysteria (imagine if you could confirm with your own senses that a doomsday prepper was right). She can't talk to the Convocation, because Fandaniel's the only guy that knows what sort of issue they're going up against, but would be swayed to Meteion's side if he knew the truth of what happened at Ktitsis. This sort of by nature limits her options to only plans that can be done with a small group of faithful. Maybe, if she was able to sway the wider masses, they could've come up with a less morally dubious solution, but given she couldn't talk them out of the second sacrifice, that wasn't gonna happen.

I'm not so sure how you reach that conclusion when the story effectively portrays her as an out-and-out hero. Again if we are meant to take any part of her scene during the Final Days literally, her speech is played as heroic even as she seemingly just kills a bunch of Zodiark worshippers. It's bizarre. I recognize that she herself says that her actions are unjustifiable, but on the other hand you say that her actions were objectively the necessary lesser evil and that all other alternatives would have been worse. Now, I don't think the story actually justifies that idea, but it certainty seems to pretend that it does.

The way I would put this is, essentially... Venat's plan to set the ship loose on the high seas wasn't the objectively morally right one, and while there wasn't a better plan at the time, maybe at some point, one could have been figured out (although I personally think it unlikely). But at this point we've been on the waters so long we can see the port she was sailing for, so while you can absolutely condemn her for the decision, at this point it's kinda more important to focus on landing.

She's ultimately in a very similar position to Emet-Selch in Shadowbringers; while distrust is fully expected, especially at the start, we've no real choice but to listen to what she's got to say, and learn that, unfortunately, she's got a few points. The time to cast judgement on her has to wait; right now we have to stop the apocalypse she was aiming to put us in the position to end.

Thanks for the response about the character limit.

We're never going to agree about the rest. I certainly did not feel I was allowed to think ill of her. My WoL goes along with everything she does (returning to those lobotomized days of ARR) while all the major NPCs repeatedly excuse or defend her actions. Her having a couple of moments of self-awareness doesn't change anything. Speaking of ARR, I can't help but notice the similarities with Minfilia. I found her a thoroughly unlikable character, but NPCs consistently gush over her. Maybe having a few dialog options where I could've at least said "I don't agree with what you've done, but you've given me no choice other than to follow through" would have helped, instead it was quite the opposite.

You got that line. It was in the very first scene with Venat. My memory's failing me, but it might actually be the very first dialog choice you get in the entire expansion. And personally one that actually didn't sit right with me, because both options assumed distrust, and for all the concerns around her that existed at the start, I personally had a feeling of 'there are bigger problems and mutual enemies in this world right now, I'm willing to trust you at least until they're done'.

[Veloran]

Actually, I don't believe the time loop changed Venat's plan in any way.

This is quite doubtful given that her actions are all incredibly specific. Given her self-stated belief that nothing is impossible, why - Bereft of knowledge of the future - Would she conclude that there was no future for the Ancients, no matter what? Why would she conclude that she must work against the Convocation, rather than with them, without even having any knowledge of Hermes' involvement with Meteion? Can we really say she would have done everything exactly the same, even strange and inexplicable actions like those on the First with Ardbert much later, if she'd had no knowledge of Meteion and the cause of the Final Days at all?

On the topic of Hermes, I also believe that his involvement being a sticking point for not working with the Convocation is itself unreasonable. Firstly, because Hermes, once mindwiped, has no real reason to turn against his people and side with Meteion. He would not remember the answers she gave about the countless dead worlds, nor promising her to consider their answers whatever they might be. And even if he had, Hermes himself would be no match against the rest of the Convocation plus Venat. If he chose to stand against them and withhold his information, he couldn't possibly hinder them so outmatched as he would've been. Moreover, there is hardly any reason for things to come to that point - Venat held all the cards and Hermes had none, she could have easily tricked him into revealing all that he knew of Dynamis and Meteion, simply by questioning him about the topic of his research and his recently "failed" concept. It's hardly even a trick, it's just asking him about information that, from his perspective, he has no real reason to hide.

[Cleretic]

This is quite doubtful given that her actions are all incredibly specific. Given her self-stated belief that nothing is impossible, why - Bereft of knowledge of the future - Would she conclude that there was no future for the Ancients, no matter what? Why would she conclude that she must work against the Convocation, rather than with them, without even having any knowledge of Hermes' involvement with Meteion? Can we really say she would have done everything exactly the same, even strange and inexplicable actions like those on the First with Ardbert much later, if she'd had no knowledge of Meteion and the cause of the Final Days at all?

On the topic of Hermes, I also believe that his involvement being a sticking point for not working with the Convocation is itself unreasonable. Firstly, because Hermes, once mindwiped, has no real reason to turn against his people and side with Meteion. He would not remember the answers she gave about the countless dead worlds, nor promising her to consider their answers whatever they might be. And even if he had, Hermes himself would be no match against the rest of the Convocation plus Venat. If he chose to stand against them and withhold his information, he couldn't possibly hinder them so outmatched as he would've been. Moreover, there is hardly any reason for things to come to that point - Venat held all the cards and Hermes had none, she could have easily tricked him into revealing all that he knew of Dynamis and Meteion, simply by questioning him about the topic of his research and his recently "failed" concept. It's hardly even a trick, it's just asking him about information that, from his perspective, he has no real reason to hide.

Personally, I run with the assumption that she would have still been in Ktitsis anyway. She crossed paths with Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch entirely without input from us, and the general dynamic suggests she doesn't stick around purely out of obligation, so we can assume that she sticks around, learns about dynamis, Meteion has her crisis, and it all culminates at Ktitsis. Venat's actions in the finale are largely independent, she tags Meteion with the cantrip and escapes on Argos; remember that the WoL's influence on the scene is only on the platform. So she escapes with the knowledge that Meteion is bringing an apocalypse, that said apocalypse is wielding energies of a kind that only Hermes has any great knowledge of, that he specifically wipes his own memory as well to give man a fighting chance (because he knows he'll ultimately side with Meteion, or at least falter in resolve). She also has a means to track Meteion's physical location in space, although no means to do anything with it.

So, from what point, what's the plan end up looking like, and how likely is it she could've come up with it?

1. First of all, don't tell the Convocation. Fair enough, that issue comes from Hermes. He openly states that is a problem, and probably knows that better than anyone, especially given he kinda already proved it.
2. Only tell select, trusted individuals. Given the attempt to avoid hysteria, and from causing Fandaniel Problems, also fair.
3. The Sundering. Definitely the diciest part of the plan, and one she struggles with the resolve of until the second sacrifice. Ultimately multipurpose, as it doesn't just prevent further summonings and weaken Zodiark, it also ensures a population that can interact with dynamis, something that the Ancients couldn't do (and were about to sacrifice the creatures that could). That multipurpose nature does mean there's a few ways to come at it, and at this point she likely had a few allies thinking about it, so while it's an ugly solution, it's one with some clear roads to it.
4. Shackle Zodiark. Ultimately this priority likely came before the sundering, but couldn't be performed until after. Ensures that Zodiark's defenses remain, but that Zodiark himself can't be misused. Basically a given.
5. The moon as a combination Zodiark holding cell and escape pod. Zodiark does have to be kept out of the way lest unseemly people get ideas, so that makes natural sense. Escape pod as a necessary contingency; thanks to Meteion she knows habitable worlds do exist, so an escape plan in case of failure is viable, and it does need to be big. But it also plants the seed of space travel, for potential saviors to pick up on later.
6. The Mothercrystal. Actually not a part of the plan as she heard it from us, and so can't be part of the paradox anyway. It is, however, proof that she's coming up with stuff herself.

So yeah, none of that sounds like something she wouldn't have thought of, especially given she needs to think outside the box. We also don't really have any timeframes to fit anything in, so she had plenty of time to think.

As to how important it is that Hermes remain stable... I mean, putting aside that whole 'Hermes himself made the decision, so maybe respect he had good reasons', remember that he's the one that comes up with the initial Zodiark plan (opinions on the other sacrifices are unknown). Without him, there is no plan, because nobody knows more about dynamis than him, and simply 'questioning him' about the concept would probably take a LONG time and have high chances of missing important facts. Making another expert on dynamis is hard; best just try not to break the one we've got instead.

[Veloran]

Personally, I run with the assumption that she would have still been in Ktitsis anyway. She crossed paths with Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch entirely without input from us, and the general dynamic suggests she doesn't stick around purely out of obligation, so we can assume that she sticks around, learns about dynamis, Meteion has her crisis, and it all culminates at Ktitsis. Venat's actions in the finale are largely independent, she tags Meteion with the cantrip and escapes on Argos; remember that the WoL's influence on the scene is only on the platform.

But Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus open the way out for WoL? Why and how could they open the way for her yet neither of them escape themselves? And if she didn't know about the events of the future, why not just immediately tell Emet and Hythlodaeus what had just happened? Not to mention that the overall events of that day and investigating Hermes was partially prompted by WoL as well.

First of all, don't tell the Convocation.

But she could just tell them and they could arrest Hermes...?

Only tell select, trusted individuals.

But one of the people we know she trusts the most is on the Convocation.

it also ensures a population that can interact with dynamis, something that the Ancients couldn't do (and were about to sacrifice the creatures that could).

But the Ancients COULD interact with Dynamis, hence why the flower reacts to their emotions. And if we believe that LBs are a Dynamis reaction, all of the Ancients could do it. Moreover we have no reason to think that the creatures they were going to sacrifice were any more capable of using Dynamis than they themselves - To our knowledge we can only presume this was wildlife, plants and animals. And, given the existence of Meteion, it is obvious that the Ancients are capable of creating beings that can interact with Dynamis. As such the sundering is an extreme solution with even less justifications from the mind of a future-unknowing Venat.

Shackle Zodiark. Ultimately this priority likely came before the sundering, but couldn't be performed until after. Ensures that Zodiark's defenses remain, but that Zodiark himself can't be misused. Basically a given.

But why? Why would she think that was necessary? The notion of the third sacrifice doesn't justify the idea of misuse.

The moon as a combination Zodiark holding cell and escape pod.

But she herself says that she would never choose to flee, and that instead she would devote everything to stopping the threat.

The Mothercrystal. Actually not a part of the plan as she heard it from us, and so can't be part of the paradox anyway.

We do tell her that she becomes the Mothercrystal, so...

Without him, there is no plan, because nobody knows more about dynamis than him, and simply 'questioning him' about the concept would probably take a LONG time and have high chances of missing important facts. Making another expert on dynamis is hard; best just try not to break the one we've got instead.

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days. And you just previously said that Venat had "plenty of time to think" her way into this misshapen box, but they didn't have "plenty of time" to research Dynamis themselves or trick/convince him to give his knowledge? They only didn't have more time because Venat insisted on sundering the world and destroying their society completely. Again this is the same woman that insists nothing is impossible.

[Mixawaves]

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days. And you just previously said that Venat had "plenty of time to think" her way into this misshapen box, but they didn't have "plenty of time" to research Dynamis themselves or trick/convince him to give his knowledge? They only didn't have more time because Venat insisted on sundering the world and destroying their society completely. Again this is the same woman that insists nothing is impossible.

This isn't true; it's clear Hermes becoming Fandaniel was key to forestalling the Final Days. We're told the Ancients generally don't even know Dynamis is a thing, let alone how it works, yet the Convocation ends up summoning Zodiark to erect the aether-barier to block it out. No one else on the Convocation is making that logical step-through. Once Zodiark is in place, focus shifts from the Final Days to restoring the world back to a utopian state, so having time to find a more permanent solution is meaningless.

[Veloran]

This isn't true; it's clear Hermes becoming Fandaniel was key to forestalling the Final Days. We're told the Ancients generally don't even know Dynamis is a thing, let alone how it works, yet the Convocation ends up summoning Zodiark to erect the aether-barier to block it out. No one else on the Convocation is making that logical step-through.

That's raw supposition though. We have no evidence they ever recognized Dynamis was at play, or what specifically they did with Zodiark. If the aetheric barrier was even intentional, it's a reasonable deduction to attempt to shield the planet from a heretofore unknown threat - Though on this point I will say that in Endwalker, the significant downplaying of Zodiark and the shift from the Sound seemingly coming from beneath the earth to coming from outer space is also some questionable writing.

Once Zodiark is in place, focus shifts from the Final Days to restoring the world back to a utopian state, so having time to find a more permanent solution is meaningless.

In what way is it unreasonable to focus on rebuilding and restoration prior to jumping headlong into investigating the threat?

[EaraGrace]

But Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus open the way out…

The escape plan only worked due to deception. Hermes would have slowed them down if they all made a break for the exit, not to mention that opening required the total concentration of Emet-Selch to open, Hythlodaeus was utterly incapable of opening the way.

But she could just tell them and they could arrest Hermes...?

And then the Convocation would not know how to use Zodiark to hold back dynamis. Remember, the Final Days occurs due to the stagnation of aether currents, especially celestial ones, a topic that Hermes is expert in. As Venat notes, denying the convocation his aid would potentially lead to failure.

But one of the people we know she trusts the most is on the Convocation.

And was summarily kicked off it when they dissented.

But the Ancients COULD interact with Dynamis…

They explicitly could not. They couldn’t hear Meteion, nor change the Elpis flowers color.

Beings that interact with dynamis have their own feelings, thoughts and desires due to the nature of what dynamis is. You expect a world that repeatedly denigrates and devalues the lives of familiars and creations to be saved by a set of beings made for little more than to bear the weight for the Ancients? They’re to hold onto the song of hope despite the horrors they would witness?

But why? Why would she think that was necessary…

The misuse was sacrificing new life simply to bring back those lost. It was an idea born of that unwillingness to accept death, a fact explicitly stated is the cutscene. They quite literally said they would not accept anything less than a “world free from sorrow.”

But she herself says that she would never choose to flee, and that instead she would devote everything to stopping the threat.

It was purely a back up plan with the added benefit of further preparing for the journey should that path be followed. She did not want to leave humanity without every possible option thus the moon would be there. “Fly, my children, and never look back.”

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days...

His knowledge of dynamis and the celestial aether currents were instrumental in responding to the final days and conceiving of Zodiark. The Watcher explains this when he reveals how the Ancients were able to know where the Final Days would strike next. And once again researching dynamis would be incredibly difficult for beings lacking the ability to interact with it. Hermes and WoL were the only two beings we know of to ever effect change on the Elpis flower by dynamis. That’s the whole point of his emotional response to seeing the flower change color. He thought he was alone.