On Venat's Role in the Story

[Rulakir]

What threshold do I have to pass to submit posts that exceed 3000 characters? Begrudgingly split response. 1/2

I suspect the short answer is:

1) The writers decided to go all in that she was good. This meant having to justify an unjustifiable act, which required a lot of convoluted writing to excuse.
2) They wanted a closed time loop so badly they were willing to sacrifice whatever it took whether it be logic or story consistency.

I suspected #1 was a possibility, but I'd hoped it wouldn't go the route it did. The WoL has been the champion of Hydaelyn since ARR, having her as evil would've soured many a player's journey. It would seem they decided her even being morally grey was not acceptable as well.

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

[Cleretic]

What threshold do I have to pass to submit posts that exceed 3000 characters? Begrudgingly split response. 1/2

None, you can exceed 3k characters in an edit. So basically, original post is shorter, then add the excess. (However, I will caution that if you go over 3k characters it can get a bit of a 'too long, didn't read' response from some)

I think it's folly to read Hydaelyn as intended to be sort of an unambiguous good, when the truth is she's not, and is rather abundantly not painted as such. She openly admits she did something horrible and loathsome, it's just that she saw it as necessary and better than the alternative, and was still acting out of love for the planet and its inhabitants. You are absolutely allowed to and are likely expected to think ill of her, but ultimately, she did something immensely ugly out of knowledge that, if she didn't, even worse would happen.

What is unambiguous isn't the morality, it's that her plan ultimately worked, while the opposing plan (the Convocation's, including when becoming the Ascians) categorically would not have, and that said plan was not one of malice. You can compare her to a lot of the Ascians in several different ways, but I think in this regard, the contrast is strongest against Elidibus; Elidibus was a hero in his own mind, wielding heroism itself as a weapon to enact the Ascians' will to bring back an age past; meanwhile, Venat performed an act in full acceptance that it makes her the villain in the tale of her people, out of nothing but a selfless love for the lives of the future.

I think a lot of dislike of Venat's Endwalker story comes from sort of a misunderstanding of the fact that... well, you're not necessarily meant to think she was in the right, it was fully intended to be unclear and ambiguous if she did the just and right thing. You thinking she did terrible things and is not a hero, while not the only intended response, is one of the intended responses.

[Lauront]

What threshold do I have to pass to submit posts that exceed 3000 characters? Begrudgingly split response. 1/2

I suspect the short answer is:

1) The writers decided to go all in that she was good. This meant having to justify an unjustifiable act, which required a lot of convoluted writing to excuse.
2) They wanted a closed time loop so badly they were willing to sacrifice whatever it took whether it be logic or story consistency.

I suspected #1 was a possibility, but I'd hoped it wouldn't go the route it did. The WoL has been the champion of Hydaelyn since ARR, having her as evil would've soured many a player's journey. It would seem they decided her even being morally grey was not acceptable as well.

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

Agree with this and the OP, which was a good read and touched on many of the issues I have with it all. In order to achieve 1 they had to resort to 2 in a way that, IMO, doesn't even achieve 1, completely making a mockery of the story to the point that it is now at the level of some of Nomura's more insane fever dreams. She is remarkably less sympathetic a character than I had expected she would be, irrespective of what narrative they've tried to insert to support an opposite conclusion. Her faulty reasoning coupled with the tortured writing required to achieve 1 marks her as one of the series's worst antagonists in my books. I was hoping we'd be done with the time travel as of SHB but apparently not, it needed to make a comeback in an even more ridiculous fashion.

She didn't tell anyone because that would create a different timeline that wouldn't result in us being where we are now. Everything she did was to ensure time would happen as she was told by the player.

But why wouldn't it regardless? The amount of variables you need to control time in that way are countless.

[Alleo]

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

I believe that if the WoL got the chance to visit Amaurot they would team up with Azem and try to find a different solution for at least that timeline. Even if it would end with the WoL forcefully being thrown back to the future and Azem failing. I hope that them not being at Venats side meant that and was not just a dropped storyline.

This is quite doubtful given that her actions are all incredibly specific. Given her self-stated belief that nothing is impossible, why - Bereft of knowledge of the future - Would she conclude that there was no future for the Ancients, no matter what? Why would she conclude that she must work against the Convocation, rather than with them, without even having any knowledge of Hermes' involvement with Meteion? Can we really say she would have done everything exactly the same, even strange and inexplicable actions like those on the First with Ardbert much later, if she'd had no knowledge of Meteion and the cause of the Final Days at all?

I agree with you on that point. Some said that most of it would have gone the same if the WoL was not there but I really doubt that. First Venat noticed us the moment we walked out of the room which could mean that she might not even have met Emet and Hythlo without us there since she was probably just curious why someone was walking around with a spell of her.

And without us there explaining everything to them, the three (if they had met) would probably just talk a bit and then go on their seperate ways again, because why should they even suspect Hermes at all? Thus when Meteion received the bad news they could have easily been alone. (I just dont see why without the knowledge that something bad will happen, that they somehow suspect and follow Hermes around or that they question him too much about Meteion)

Without all the information about the future and maybe missing those clues about Meteion would she really come to the conclusion that sundering would be the best option? That she would need to built a moon space ship and rabbit people? That she would gift us the Elpis flower?

If she really found out all of this without us there then she would have been way to powerful and great. And it would beg the question on why she would sent the WoL back into the past. After all she could have simply told us the solution anyway.

Edit:

Some more examples with us being in Elpis
- WoL walking with Meteion -> What would have happened without us there? Would Hermes stop the meeting earlier? Would she have to be alone outside?
- WoL noticing the Elpis flower -> This starts a whole discussion about Dynamis. These flowers were kinda no big deal for the Ancients, so would Emet or Hythlo even notice them?
- Wol showing Hermes that others can be sad too (I have no idea if that changes something for him or not)

[RyuDragnier]

As for #2, it was an odd choice given that ShB indicated Azem had ghosted Venat in the past after leaving the Convocation. Learning that Venat was their mentor raises even more questions as to Azem's actions. It's possible Azem didn't know what her plan was, but if they did then it seems odd our original incarnation would be opposed to her while the WoL was 100% on board. It's for this reason I wonder if we'll ever see Azem's side of the story and if that's why those plot elements were absent in EW because it would require more contrivances to explain.

It could be something they go over in another "return to the past" type deal, maybe as the newest Trial storyline.

[nanatotempole]

I suspect the short answer is:

1) The writers decided to go all in that she was good. This meant having to justify an unjustifiable act, which required a lot of convoluted writing to excuse.
2) They wanted a closed time loop so badly they were willing to sacrifice whatever it took whether it be logic or story consistency.

3rd possibility.
3) Venat retaining her memory was a revision.

I wish they made her forget. She could have sensed her magic in the far reaches, and noticed Argos behaving strangely Lassie-style. Hermes could have been appalled at the 2nd sacrifice and helped her summon Hydaelyn to bind Zodiark. Instead of purposefully sundering us, it could have been a bi-product as it was originally stated, or Hermes could have suspected a Dynamis cause, and suggested the sundering himself. If Hermes' deal was always changing the purpose of the civilization, and if he legit cared about all life, that would be an interesting temporary heel-turn.