On Venat's Role in the Story

[Veloran]

Personally, I run with the assumption that she would have still been in Ktitsis anyway. She crossed paths with Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch entirely without input from us, and the general dynamic suggests she doesn't stick around purely out of obligation, so we can assume that she sticks around, learns about dynamis, Meteion has her crisis, and it all culminates at Ktitsis. Venat's actions in the finale are largely independent, she tags Meteion with the cantrip and escapes on Argos; remember that the WoL's influence on the scene is only on the platform.

But Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus open the way out for WoL? Why and how could they open the way for her yet neither of them escape themselves? And if she didn't know about the events of the future, why not just immediately tell Emet and Hythlodaeus what had just happened? Not to mention that the overall events of that day and investigating Hermes was partially prompted by WoL as well.

First of all, don't tell the Convocation.

But she could just tell them and they could arrest Hermes...?

Only tell select, trusted individuals.

But one of the people we know she trusts the most is on the Convocation.

it also ensures a population that can interact with dynamis, something that the Ancients couldn't do (and were about to sacrifice the creatures that could).

But the Ancients COULD interact with Dynamis, hence why the flower reacts to their emotions. And if we believe that LBs are a Dynamis reaction, all of the Ancients could do it. Moreover we have no reason to think that the creatures they were going to sacrifice were any more capable of using Dynamis than they themselves - To our knowledge we can only presume this was wildlife, plants and animals. And, given the existence of Meteion, it is obvious that the Ancients are capable of creating beings that can interact with Dynamis. As such the sundering is an extreme solution with even less justifications from the mind of a future-unknowing Venat.

Shackle Zodiark. Ultimately this priority likely came before the sundering, but couldn't be performed until after. Ensures that Zodiark's defenses remain, but that Zodiark himself can't be misused. Basically a given.

But why? Why would she think that was necessary? The notion of the third sacrifice doesn't justify the idea of misuse.

The moon as a combination Zodiark holding cell and escape pod.

But she herself says that she would never choose to flee, and that instead she would devote everything to stopping the threat.

The Mothercrystal. Actually not a part of the plan as she heard it from us, and so can't be part of the paradox anyway.

We do tell her that she becomes the Mothercrystal, so...

Without him, there is no plan, because nobody knows more about dynamis than him, and simply 'questioning him' about the concept would probably take a LONG time and have high chances of missing important facts. Making another expert on dynamis is hard; best just try not to break the one we've got instead.

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days. And you just previously said that Venat had "plenty of time to think" her way into this misshapen box, but they didn't have "plenty of time" to research Dynamis themselves or trick/convince him to give his knowledge? They only didn't have more time because Venat insisted on sundering the world and destroying their society completely. Again this is the same woman that insists nothing is impossible.

[Mixawaves]

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days. And you just previously said that Venat had "plenty of time to think" her way into this misshapen box, but they didn't have "plenty of time" to research Dynamis themselves or trick/convince him to give his knowledge? They only didn't have more time because Venat insisted on sundering the world and destroying their society completely. Again this is the same woman that insists nothing is impossible.

This isn't true; it's clear Hermes becoming Fandaniel was key to forestalling the Final Days. We're told the Ancients generally don't even know Dynamis is a thing, let alone how it works, yet the Convocation ends up summoning Zodiark to erect the aether-barier to block it out. No one else on the Convocation is making that logical step-through. Once Zodiark is in place, focus shifts from the Final Days to restoring the world back to a utopian state, so having time to find a more permanent solution is meaningless.

[Veloran]

This isn't true; it's clear Hermes becoming Fandaniel was key to forestalling the Final Days. We're told the Ancients generally don't even know Dynamis is a thing, let alone how it works, yet the Convocation ends up summoning Zodiark to erect the aether-barier to block it out. No one else on the Convocation is making that logical step-through.

That's raw supposition though. We have no evidence they ever recognized Dynamis was at play, or what specifically they did with Zodiark. If the aetheric barrier was even intentional, it's a reasonable deduction to attempt to shield the planet from a heretofore unknown threat - Though on this point I will say that in Endwalker, the significant downplaying of Zodiark and the shift from the Sound seemingly coming from beneath the earth to coming from outer space is also some questionable writing.

Once Zodiark is in place, focus shifts from the Final Days to restoring the world back to a utopian state, so having time to find a more permanent solution is meaningless.

In what way is it unreasonable to focus on rebuilding and restoration prior to jumping headlong into investigating the threat?

[EaraGrace]

But Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus open the way out…

The escape plan only worked due to deception. Hermes would have slowed them down if they all made a break for the exit, not to mention that opening required the total concentration of Emet-Selch to open, Hythlodaeus was utterly incapable of opening the way.

But she could just tell them and they could arrest Hermes...?

And then the Convocation would not know how to use Zodiark to hold back dynamis. Remember, the Final Days occurs due to the stagnation of aether currents, especially celestial ones, a topic that Hermes is expert in. As Venat notes, denying the convocation his aid would potentially lead to failure.

But one of the people we know she trusts the most is on the Convocation.

And was summarily kicked off it when they dissented.

But the Ancients COULD interact with Dynamis…

They explicitly could not. They couldn’t hear Meteion, nor change the Elpis flowers color.

Beings that interact with dynamis have their own feelings, thoughts and desires due to the nature of what dynamis is. You expect a world that repeatedly denigrates and devalues the lives of familiars and creations to be saved by a set of beings made for little more than to bear the weight for the Ancients? They’re to hold onto the song of hope despite the horrors they would witness?

But why? Why would she think that was necessary…

The misuse was sacrificing new life simply to bring back those lost. It was an idea born of that unwillingness to accept death, a fact explicitly stated is the cutscene. They quite literally said they would not accept anything less than a “world free from sorrow.”

But she herself says that she would never choose to flee, and that instead she would devote everything to stopping the threat.

It was purely a back up plan with the added benefit of further preparing for the journey should that path be followed. She did not want to leave humanity without every possible option thus the moon would be there. “Fly, my children, and never look back.”

But Hermes' knowledge of Dynamis wasn't even used during the Final Days...

His knowledge of dynamis and the celestial aether currents were instrumental in responding to the final days and conceiving of Zodiark. The Watcher explains this when he reveals how the Ancients were able to know where the Final Days would strike next. And once again researching dynamis would be incredibly difficult for beings lacking the ability to interact with it. Hermes and WoL were the only two beings we know of to ever effect change on the Elpis flower by dynamis. That’s the whole point of his emotional response to seeing the flower change color. He thought he was alone.

[Veloran]

The escape plan only worked due to deception. Hermes would have slowed them down if they all made a break for the exit, not to mention that opening required the total concentration of Emet-Selch to open, Hythlodaeus was utterly incapable of opening the way.

I wasn't implying Hythlodaeus opened it himself, merely that he aided the effort. And doing so clearly did not require Emet's "total concentration" given he was clashing wish Hermes at the same time. If we assume a timeline without WoL, at the very least both Venat and Hythlodaeus should have been able to escape, not in the least because Venat had at least two dogs ready to fly.

And then the Convocation would not know how to use Zodiark to hold back dynamis. Remember, the Final Days occurs due to the stagnation of aether currents, especially celestial ones, a topic that Hermes is expert in. As Venat notes, denying the convocation his aid would potentially lead to failure.

Just because Hermes is versed in the subject doesn't mean that nobody else is or that he was the one who was mainly behind Zodiark. At the time Elpis takes place the previous Fandaniel - Hermes mentor - Hadn't even stepped down yet, so for this purpose they likely could have turned to him assuming nobody else could possibly serve.

And was summarily kicked off it when they dissented.

To my recollection Azem left rather than be kicked off, but I may be wrong on that. But regardless, I hope you don't mean to imply that Azem dissented because Venat shared the truth with them? Even if she did, Azem later didn't join Venat, so it doesn't exactly speak to the veracity of her cause.

They couldn’t hear Meteion, nor change the Elpis flowers color.

Hermes at the very least could change the flower's color. If it's possible for him it should be possible for anybody. And I hardly care to hear the notion that he was some super special empath and the rest of the Ancients were near-emotionless, it's obvious they could partake in great joys and sorrows both.

You expect a world that repeatedly denigrates and devalues the lives of familiars and creations to be saved by a set of beings made for little more than to bear the weight for the Ancients?

Firstly, I dispute the idea that they "denigrate and devalue" life. Before the Final Days brutalized them they were clearly hesitant to kill anything that had gained a soul, and anything without one can be said to merely be an unliving arcane construct. They have no more reason to value the lives of such things than you should value the life of your car and object to the disassembly and reassembly of it's engine. And as I keep saying, this argument of the Ancients "disrespecting life", is frankly laughable in light of how modern people treat life. Even should they have been forced to create concepts with souls for the sole purpose of fighting Meteion, criticism of this is wildly hypocritical in light of the fact that WoL themselves assists in the creation of weapons with souls for their own use in battle.

The misuse was sacrificing new life simply to bring back those lost. It was an idea born of that unwillingness to accept death, a fact explicitly stated is the cutscene. They quite literally said they would not accept anything less than a “world free from sorrow.”

And yet nothing has changed on that front. Such a world is still one that people are working towards step-by-step, and even the Scions, some of the most heroic characters in the world, admit that faced with the same choices they would likely have made those same decisions. Actually that was more specifically about the much much worse idea of sacrificing countless innocent strangers to save their loved ones with the issue of the Calamities, so in comparison the Ancient's plan to sacrifice a bunch of farmed natural life like plants and animals to save those trapped in Zodiark is so comparably morally insignificant that it doesn't even bear questioning. Again, modern people "sacrifice life" as a daily routine.

It was purely a back up plan with the added benefit of further preparing for the journey should that path be followed. She did not want to leave humanity without every possible option thus the moon would be there. “Fly, my children, and never look back.”

You're missing my point here. The fact is that even as a "backup plan" it conflicts with Venat's own stated ideals. In fact nearly everything she does conflicts with her stated ideals.

So many of the arguments about why she had to do what she did center around the notion that all other alternatives were impossible. It was impossible to save the Ancient's society, it was impossible to work with the Convocation, it was impossible to reveal the truth, it was impossible to alter the timeline, it was impossible to allow the Ancients to choose their own fate, it was impossible not to lie to WoL in the future, it was impossible to solve the Final Days any other way, it was impossible to stop Meteion any other way. But according to what she says she thinks, none of these are excuses. So if they weren't necessary because alternatives were possible, that means that her actions were motivated by her own thinking and undertaken because she thought they were for the best - Either that, or she simply gave up on the idea of nothing being impossible, and resigned herself to not exploring every possible option in favor of following fate. Whatever her determination, it completely flew in the face of her wish of seeing man choose his own fate, as she instead chose it for them.

[EaraGrace]

I wasn't implying Hythlodaeus opened it himself, merely that he aided the effort...

Once again remember that the plan revolves around making Hermes think the spatial conflagration was in a different spot, an illusion that wouldn’t work here.

Just because Hermes is versed in the subject doesn't mean that nobody else is or that he was the one who was mainly behind Zodiark.

He’s the foremost expert on this topic, the Watcher says plainly few knew of them at all. Rewatch the scene with him, he makes it clear how important this information was.

To my recollection Azem left rather than be kicked off, but I may be wrong on that...

They are labeled a defector and despite the Convocation having the ability to replace members they instead simply removed the position entirely. Not exactly just them leaving. And no, it’s plainly stated that’s not the case, I’m merely pointing out that the Convocation did not seem open for dissent.

Hermes at the very least could change the flower's color. If it's possible for him it should be possible for anybody…

No it’s not possible for anyone. The whole point of Meteion wanting to show Hermes our ability to change its color is solely predicated on the fact that Hermes has not seen anyone else change its color and doesn’t believe he’ll find anyone.

Firstly, I dispute the idea that they "denigrate and devalue" life...

If my car had a a soul and feelings then yes I would feel the need to value it’s existence. Once again, it’s clear the concepts had thoughts and feelings and desire of their own.

And yet nothing has changed on that front...

Saying others do it too is not a defense of doing something, it’s whataboutism.

You're missing my point here...

How does having a backup plan in case Zodiark is killed before humanity is ready violate her beliefs?

So many of the arguments about why she had to do what she did center around the notion that all other alternatives were impossible…

You’ve discovered that oftentimes our desires push us in competing directions. Her foremost concern was to see the Song of Oblivion silenced. That is the impossible she wished to tackle. Saying “nothing is impossible” is not saying that we have infinite time and choices and options, but that if one puts their mind to it they can succeed. And she did.

And yes, the conflict between allowing humanity to makes its own choices and avoiding oblivion is the core of the conflict in her arc. What you see as inconsistent I see as simply a reflection of the complexity of life. Any decision, any form of aid, any impact she has on the world would violate her desire to see people walk free and make choices for themselves.