Tank healing is to high

[J-Reyno]

Tank sustainability should be the healer and not the tank.

No, it really shouldn't. And this is an issue I've had with FFXIV for a long time, because most of what SHOULD be the tank's job has always been the healer's job. I've played games where tanks have very powerful, frequent-use mitigation and self-sustain tools. Games where the tank really works to stay on their feet. Then there's FFXIV where we have these weak, occasional-use mitigation abilities and otherwise spend 99% of our time doing damage and nothing else.

Now for the first time ever tanks aaalllmost kinda feel like actual tanks and not just the designated whipping boy.

Tanks not crumbling to pieces in low-pressure content when a healer doesn't babysit them 24/7 doesn't invalidate the healer role. When you're running extreme trials and savage raids divine veil is not going to keep the party alive. Healers still have plenty to do and even if the tanks were entirely self-sufficient (they're not) there'd still be the rest of the party in need of healing.

[Ashua]

No, it really shouldn't. And this is an issue I've had with FFXIV for a long time, because most of what SHOULD be the tank's job has always been the healer's job. I've played games where tanks have very powerful, frequent-use mitigation and self-sustain tools. Games where the tank really works to stay on their feet. Then there's FFXIV where we have these weak, occasional-use mitigation abilities and otherwise spend 99% of our time doing damage and nothing else.

Now for the first time ever tanks aaalllmost kinda feel like actual tanks and not just the designated whipping boy.

Tanks not crumbling to pieces in low-pressure content when a healer doesn't babysit them 24/7 doesn't invalidate the healer role. When you're running extreme trials and savage raids divine veil is not going to keep the party alive. Healers still have plenty to do and even if the tanks were entirely self-sufficient (they're not) there'd still be the rest of the party in need of healing.

You are reversing the roles essentially. Tanks are a tank for a reason. They are not healers. Tanks getting abilities that not only step on healers' toes but also allow them to help shield and heal allies is the absurdity icing to this cake. You cannot have it all. Your dps will be reduced to 25%-45% of a healer if you want to have this type of healing power. What should the healers do? Have you not seen the one healer trial runs on extreme going on right now and see how 1-2 minutes of the entire fight the scholar had to heal with the rest o the time spamming broil? Is this where we are going? Officially reducing the number of healers to 1 and eventually going to 1 tank and 1 healer for every static group because that is quickly becoming the meta for healers at least. I can see it even happening with the minimal gear.

[J-Reyno]

These changes are really just there to make the role comfortable to beginner tanks who would otherwise be panicking and roaring at their healers through the screen the instant that their HP dropped below 70%. It's okay to be scared. That's what makes tanking fun.

Tanks only just NOW feel like an oversimplified melee dps to you? Because they have new tank tools that boost their self-sustain?

Well I guess people will always feel differently. To me, dropping to low health and getting "scared" is only fun when I have the agency to do something about it. Otherwise I just sit there and wait for mommy healer to kiss it and make it better.

[Lyth]

...

No, they seemed that way to me four years ago, as you would have been able to infer yourself had you read my post.

Tanking requires a certain amount of faith in your healers. Your job is to help them by correctly anticipating damage. Not to do their job for them. Even if you look at examples of lifesteal done well (i.e. Death Strike), there's still a timing element associated with reversing the damage taken. If you can heal yourself back up at will, it just encourages sloppy play for the both of you.

I've said this before, but the way things are going, tanks will eventually become so strong that the only damage on tanks that will matter is one-shot mechanics. And then, and only then, players will finally realize that tanking is irrelevant.

[J-Reyno]

No, they seemed that way to me four years ago, as you would have been able to infer yourself had you read my post.

I said "now" because that's the word you used, which read to me like your opinion degraded since HW and AR until now where you finally realized tanks are oversimplified melee dps. I'd quote it for you but your post is still there if you want to go back and read it yourself. Not what you meant, got it, whatever, moving on.

Anyway, tanks aren't doing the healers' job just by having some self-sustain, and I'm not convinced that it somehow encourages "sloppy" play for the tank to restore their own health at will when that's exactly what the healer does anyway. It just shifts a little bit of that responsibility from one role to another. I'm sure we'd all love more interesting sustain abilities that require timing and proper performance, but we know SE is not going to do that. And that's a criticism of SE's design choices which is a different topic.

I'm not interested in changing your mind, but this is my perspective. What I enjoy most about tanks in other games I've played is having strong, frequent-use active mitigation and sustain abilities, and having the greatest responsibility for keeping myself alive. This should be the tank's job and it's something I've always wanted for FFXIV's tank role.

[Lyth]

...

It's a work in progress. Every expansion I think to myself, well, this is it, they can't extract any more challenge or responsibility out of the role. And every expansion, they seem to just find a way to disappoint us further.

I wouldn't say that the current era of 'auto-potion' tanking shifts the responsibility from one role to another. Healers have long been complaining about an overabundance of healing tools with nothing to actually use them on. You're merely doubling up roles on a task that never was all that difficult to begin with. There is no responsibility in keeping yourself alive as a tank, because there's no challenge to it. If you want strong, frequent use of active mitigation and sustain abilities, then failing to ration them out correctly should result in you dying, but here you have an overabundance of defensives. This has become a training wheels role to allow people to take a few vuln stacks and play with a simplified rotation. And it's unfortunate, because in games where tanks are adequately challenged, it's a really fun role to play.

[NeoDivinity]

And it's unfortunate, because in games where tanks are adequately challenged, it's a really fun role to play.

Sry to ask but may i have some reference to this, because from my experience the only have where tanking was actually fun at some point on endgame content for me was TERA. On casual content of course tanking is boring and you dont feel punished at all.

For Ultimate fights optmizing mitigation and keeping the cd rotation is a must. Take the 1st and 2nd phase on TEA for example, you miss a window you can die if your healer isnt babysitting you. I do consider Extremes an entry content for those casual players aiming for a new challenge but it does'nt go harder enough to be considered harcore content at all.
I whised for more interesting mechanics on tanks, as a main tank since ARR I hate that DPS is taken as comparison between the jobs in the role but i would take FF Tanks over WoW Tanks everyday for example, where the aggro generation still an unappealing mechanic, where spamming your highest aggro abilities and hoping that the healer isnt sleeping on the job is the main focus of the role.

That said ,the new tool gives the off tanks new oportunities to help the group, landing a little shield on a DPS in danger or maybe helping the MT with the mitigation if something goes bad. Does'nt change much but adds something new. As for healer responsability ffs, try enter any content as a healer and not heal and see what happens. The role need some attention but this thread is beyond redemption already.
On an expansion where we got 2 new Jobs, 2 complete reworks on existing jobs and the aim was to close this giant saga, i think the dev team is in good shape.

[J-Reyno]

If you want strong, frequent use of active mitigation and sustain abilities, then failing to ration them out correctly should result in you dying

I don't disagree. I've always said that I want boss damage to be consistently dangerous to suffer unmitigated and tanks should have to actually perform in order to stay alive. And if they fail, they get stomped. That's never going to happen. I could go on and on about what could be done for tanks and how it could be made into a more engaging role.

If this was a matter of choosing whether these tools should stay or if, instead, the entire role and all of the game's encounters adjusted to heighten the performance element of tanking? I'm sure more of us would agree.

But that's not really the alternative here and not what's being discussed in the OP. So as far as this topic goes, I can only say that I'm not interested in rejecting what little we have now just because it could be better. Especially when we know it won't be.

[bulbs]

You are reversing the roles essentially. Tanks are a tank for a reason. They are not healers. Tanks getting abilities that not only step on healers' toes but also allow them to help shield and heal allies is the absurdity icing to this cake. You cannot have it all. Your dps will be reduced to 25%-45% of a healer if you want to have this type of healing power. What should the healers do? Have you not seen the one healer trial runs on extreme going on right now and see how 1-2 minutes of the entire fight the scholar had to heal with the rest o the time spamming broil? Is this where we are going? Officially reducing the number of healers to 1 and eventually going to 1 tank and 1 healer for every static group because that is quickly becoming the meta for healers at least. I can see it even happening with the minimal gear.

This is one way to approache lowering the que times for dps . now for dungeons throw the whole healer out the window an make it 3 dps needed. /s