Tank healing is to high

[Ashua]

glad tbh too many times healer die with no raise caster and its over but with GNB now you can easily sustain yourself and 1-2 DPS to push through in dungeon bosses

And that sort of invalidates the healer. Honestly, the queue requiring a green role in order for the dungeon finder to click into play is the only reason a healer is required. The game was designed with the triality of modern-day MMO's and I think it is a disservice to basically invalidate a third of the players who enjoy that aspect. So now in order to get my healing jollies on I have to also be a tank? If two DPS and a tank can tackle a boss it is poor game design. Either fix it or rework the game without requiring healers to be a role.

Tank sustainability is a good thing. The problem is we don't have the damage intake to match it.

Having a strong toolkit that rewards you for using it well is more interesting than standing there doing 1, 2, 3 endlessly while the healers throw you an oGCD occasionally. But if bosses just tickle you, there's no purpose for those self-heals. That's the problem.

And it's worse for healers. Tank sustainability should be the healer and not the tank. You have a 1-2-3 combo but I have a 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 combo for 99.9% of whatever I do. The bosses do more than tickle. Tanks can burst heal better than current healers is the problem. 10x for warriors but literally similar for all but the Dark Knight.

[J-Reyno]

Tank sustainability should be the healer and not the tank.

No, it really shouldn't. And this is an issue I've had with FFXIV for a long time, because most of what SHOULD be the tank's job has always been the healer's job. I've played games where tanks have very powerful, frequent-use mitigation and self-sustain tools. Games where the tank really works to stay on their feet. Then there's FFXIV where we have these weak, occasional-use mitigation abilities and otherwise spend 99% of our time doing damage and nothing else.

Now for the first time ever tanks aaalllmost kinda feel like actual tanks and not just the designated whipping boy.

Tanks not crumbling to pieces in low-pressure content when a healer doesn't babysit them 24/7 doesn't invalidate the healer role. When you're running extreme trials and savage raids divine veil is not going to keep the party alive. Healers still have plenty to do and even if the tanks were entirely self-sufficient (they're not) there'd still be the rest of the party in need of healing.

[Ashua]

No, it really shouldn't. And this is an issue I've had with FFXIV for a long time, because most of what SHOULD be the tank's job has always been the healer's job. I've played games where tanks have very powerful, frequent-use mitigation and self-sustain tools. Games where the tank really works to stay on their feet. Then there's FFXIV where we have these weak, occasional-use mitigation abilities and otherwise spend 99% of our time doing damage and nothing else.

Now for the first time ever tanks aaalllmost kinda feel like actual tanks and not just the designated whipping boy.

Tanks not crumbling to pieces in low-pressure content when a healer doesn't babysit them 24/7 doesn't invalidate the healer role. When you're running extreme trials and savage raids divine veil is not going to keep the party alive. Healers still have plenty to do and even if the tanks were entirely self-sufficient (they're not) there'd still be the rest of the party in need of healing.

You are reversing the roles essentially. Tanks are a tank for a reason. They are not healers. Tanks getting abilities that not only step on healers' toes but also allow them to help shield and heal allies is the absurdity icing to this cake. You cannot have it all. Your dps will be reduced to 25%-45% of a healer if you want to have this type of healing power. What should the healers do? Have you not seen the one healer trial runs on extreme going on right now and see how 1-2 minutes of the entire fight the scholar had to heal with the rest o the time spamming broil? Is this where we are going? Officially reducing the number of healers to 1 and eventually going to 1 tank and 1 healer for every static group because that is quickly becoming the meta for healers at least. I can see it even happening with the minimal gear.

[J-Reyno]

These changes are really just there to make the role comfortable to beginner tanks who would otherwise be panicking and roaring at their healers through the screen the instant that their HP dropped below 70%. It's okay to be scared. That's what makes tanking fun.

Tanks only just NOW feel like an oversimplified melee dps to you? Because they have new tank tools that boost their self-sustain?

Well I guess people will always feel differently. To me, dropping to low health and getting "scared" is only fun when I have the agency to do something about it. Otherwise I just sit there and wait for mommy healer to kiss it and make it better.

[Lyth]

...

No, they seemed that way to me four years ago, as you would have been able to infer yourself had you read my post.

Tanking requires a certain amount of faith in your healers. Your job is to help them by correctly anticipating damage. Not to do their job for them. Even if you look at examples of lifesteal done well (i.e. Death Strike), there's still a timing element associated with reversing the damage taken. If you can heal yourself back up at will, it just encourages sloppy play for the both of you.

I've said this before, but the way things are going, tanks will eventually become so strong that the only damage on tanks that will matter is one-shot mechanics. And then, and only then, players will finally realize that tanking is irrelevant.

[J-Reyno]

No, they seemed that way to me four years ago, as you would have been able to infer yourself had you read my post.

I said "now" because that's the word you used, which read to me like your opinion degraded since HW and AR until now where you finally realized tanks are oversimplified melee dps. I'd quote it for you but your post is still there if you want to go back and read it yourself. Not what you meant, got it, whatever, moving on.

Anyway, tanks aren't doing the healers' job just by having some self-sustain, and I'm not convinced that it somehow encourages "sloppy" play for the tank to restore their own health at will when that's exactly what the healer does anyway. It just shifts a little bit of that responsibility from one role to another. I'm sure we'd all love more interesting sustain abilities that require timing and proper performance, but we know SE is not going to do that. And that's a criticism of SE's design choices which is a different topic.

I'm not interested in changing your mind, but this is my perspective. What I enjoy most about tanks in other games I've played is having strong, frequent-use active mitigation and sustain abilities, and having the greatest responsibility for keeping myself alive. This should be the tank's job and it's something I've always wanted for FFXIV's tank role.

[Lyth]

...

It's a work in progress. Every expansion I think to myself, well, this is it, they can't extract any more challenge or responsibility out of the role. And every expansion, they seem to just find a way to disappoint us further.

I wouldn't say that the current era of 'auto-potion' tanking shifts the responsibility from one role to another. Healers have long been complaining about an overabundance of healing tools with nothing to actually use them on. You're merely doubling up roles on a task that never was all that difficult to begin with. There is no responsibility in keeping yourself alive as a tank, because there's no challenge to it. If you want strong, frequent use of active mitigation and sustain abilities, then failing to ration them out correctly should result in you dying, but here you have an overabundance of defensives. This has become a training wheels role to allow people to take a few vuln stacks and play with a simplified rotation. And it's unfortunate, because in games where tanks are adequately challenged, it's a really fun role to play.

[bulbs]

You are reversing the roles essentially. Tanks are a tank for a reason. They are not healers. Tanks getting abilities that not only step on healers' toes but also allow them to help shield and heal allies is the absurdity icing to this cake. You cannot have it all. Your dps will be reduced to 25%-45% of a healer if you want to have this type of healing power. What should the healers do? Have you not seen the one healer trial runs on extreme going on right now and see how 1-2 minutes of the entire fight the scholar had to heal with the rest o the time spamming broil? Is this where we are going? Officially reducing the number of healers to 1 and eventually going to 1 tank and 1 healer for every static group because that is quickly becoming the meta for healers at least. I can see it even happening with the minimal gear.

This is one way to approache lowering the que times for dps . now for dungeons throw the whole healer out the window an make it 3 dps needed. /s

[PondHollow]

And that sort of invalidates the healer. Honestly, the queue requiring a green role in order for the dungeon finder to click into play is the only reason a healer is required. The game was designed with the triality of modern-day MMO's and I think it is a disservice to basically invalidate a third of the players who enjoy that aspect. So now in order to get my healing jollies on I have to also be a tank?

Unironically yes. I was a Scholar main until they insisted all the healers were 1-button DPS in ShB... and now I know more people who quit healing over Scholar because of that than people who picked up any healer class in the last two years.

It does look to me that we are earnestly headed in the direction of the deletion of the healer role. There are only a handful of mechanics that justify it.

Tank healing should stay high. Tank rotations aren't that involved - give us more to do. I could absolutely play both Scholar and Warrior at the same time without issue. Just give tanks a handful of more heals and we can ditch the green icon completely.

[Dogempire]

And that sort of invalidates the healer. Honestly, the queue requiring a green role in order for the dungeon finder to click into play is the only reason a healer is required. The game was designed with the triality of modern-day MMO's and I think it is a disservice to basically invalidate a third of the players who enjoy that aspect. So now in order to get my healing jollies on I have to also be a tank? If two DPS and a tank can tackle a boss it is poor game design. Either fix it or rework the game without requiring healers to be a role.



And it's worse for healers. Tank sustainability should be the healer and not the tank. You have a 1-2-3 combo but I have a 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 combo for 99.9% of whatever I do. The bosses do more than tickle. Tanks can burst heal better than current healers is the problem. 10x for warriors but literally similar for all but the Dark Knight.

Honestly this pretty much sums up my issue with healers as they are right now, they're boring to play, the heals barely do anything (600 potency heals like a wet noodle) and they're kind of invalidated when you die and the boss can still be solo'd 50% to 0 because the paladin can just sustain everyone with clemency or the warrior can fight the boss for days with their self heals

They can make healing do less so we have to do more, and that's fine, but it doesn't make sense to just give tanks a ton of self-healing so they basically get to be independent when it comes to boss fights