Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[Loggos]

Assume full MSQ spoilers. 2/3

Hydaelyn:

Venat was an incredibly divisive character for me. They made her likeable in Elpis only to ruin it at the end. We essentially made her omniscient and for her to not do anything differently was unthinkable to me especially as none of her choices up to that point had resulted in saving the star. I firmly believe Elpis should have branched into an alternate timeline. Not talking to Emet and Hythlodaeus was nonsensical, especially as a handful of quests earlier she was teaching us how to view memories of the past. I found all of her excuses flawed and had to resign myself to the writer(s) wanting a closed time loop so badly that I would have to suffer through the illogic of it all.

I did not care for the 'montage' scene after the end of Elpis either. It confused too many people because what was depicted didn't match with events as detailed in ShB. The audacity of Venat, giving that sanctimonious speech while acting as judge, jury, and executioner to a civilization she doomed with her secrecy. Her character ended up not being much different than Hermes. I was not moved by her 'suffering' either, which was her choice knowing exactly how it would play out unlike everyone else who suffered from her choices in ignorance.

The problem with this is Venat/Hydaelyn is written unquestionably as a "good" character to the extent of being the loving motherly figure to all. There's no arguing that she was in the wrong because - and this is another of my gripes - all shades of grey were stripped from EW. Your WoL, the Scions, the other non-Ancient NPCs, all view her as benevolent and just. (I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised by this as the Scions have always been zealous regarding her.) The fact that she does have two moments of self-awareness also trick you into believing she's a better person than she is.

Her reasons for sundering also change from Elpis to the Mothercrystal. First it's because she believes the Ancients incapable of the change she deems necessary and then it's because they were too dense in aether to deal with dynamis, something she never told anyone they needed to figure out how to deal with in the first place. Here's an idea: how about you consult with your experts, apprehend and interrogate Hermes, and inform the public to allow them the opportunity to adapt instead of letting the Final Days descend with no one having any idea why or how to adjust. Venat wasn't smarter than anyone else, she simply had access to information they didn't and because of that we'll never know if there could've been an alternate path for them. Knowledge is power and she refused to share it.

I really agree with this analysis. Still, I do love

Venat. I know it's very easy and can be all too convenient to say "it was out of character" when a character you like does something you disagree with.

But in this case I'm really inclined to do so. The lack of logic behind her actions felt too inconsistent with her characterisation considering that people described her as outstandingly intelligent and very proactive. She is not perfect but Hydaelin's plan seemed like the opposite of these defining traits to me...

I was under the impression that all of her bad attempts at excuses and justifications were really just the writers desperately trying to excuse the plot through her mouth.


It seems to me that they really wanted to include the time travel element, maybe amongst others as a way to bring beloved characters like Emet-Selch (and the until then faceless Hythlodaeus) back and give us a glimpse at the Ascians' world that we can experience first hand, that is not just a tale or a flashback.

But at the same time they also knew that they didn't have the room or time in the remaining story anymore to incorporate the time travel in a way that really makes sense.
To account for all the effects that should logically have followed. It's easier to just say "btw everything else stays the same after you leave", so you don't have to spend time on explaining to the player all the things that have changed in the meantime compared to the original time line.

(I am aware that in the end the world has to be sundered either way because otherwise there is no Aldenard that we could return to and no WoL that could do the returning in the first place. But maybe they could have found a reason why the sundering still had to happen that was better than just "nothing will change" and "Only Venat can know because Hermes might pull a stunt if literally any other person than Venat learns about it".
How about telling just the other 13 members of the convocation and face Hermes together? Or at least tell Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus. Emet is a master-planner and Hythlo seems quite smart himself. Maybe the brainpower of three intelligent Ascians would have led to a better plan than only Venat's. Or maybe Hermes learning the truth and sabotaging Venat's and the others' efforts to change the future would be a good reason why the sundering ultimately still happens.
It would still be better than the excuses we were served.)

So in the end, I really agree with others here, I think the alternative branch as we had it in ShB would have made a lot more sense. I just cannot fathom why Venat would act as @Rulakir describes. Now that she knows what's happening she is more or less sentencing them to death because she is withholding knowledge, esp. from Emet and Hythlodaeus, that might have changed things. The story insisting that despite the time travel nothing can change and that the events have to play out like before make little sense to me.

But a loop is a lot easier to write and to justify if you bring up time travel in the second to last zone.

I loved Elpis - it was my favourite part of EW next to the final zone - and I would not want for it to be removed from the story under any circumstances. But I think they used it too late in the story for its revelations to be properly integrated into the rest of it.

[Sylve]

I really agree with this analysis. Still, I do love

I loved Elpis - it was my favourite part of EW next to the final zone - and I would not want for it to be removed from the story under any circumstances. But I think they used it too late in the story for its revelations to be properly integrated into the rest of it.

On the 87 zone,

Friend and i had a rather long discussion about the implications of that time travel and we basically concluded that we did in fact create a divergent timeline in keeping with the rules they set out in Shadowbringers.

It kind of depends on whether or not Venat would have placed the beacon on Meteion regardless of whether or not we were present.
If the events of that day in Elpis had played out precisely the same way even if we were never there, AKA Emet and Hythlo get mindwiped but Venat escapes after tagging Meteion, then no divergent timeline as nothing was changed aside from the fact that we can take our observations into the future. (Which is what seems to be the case)

But if Venat managed to avoid the Kairos mindwipe and tag her the first time, then she should have been able to avert the Final Days by filling Emet in on what caused it in the first place, Averting the need for Zodiark and Hydaelyn.
But when we encounter him in Shadowbringers, he even says they never found the cause.
Thus a paradox.

Either Venat knew what caused it and said nothing because she wanted Meteion to win in the original history, which flies in the face of what we know about both sides of her character or we caused a divergent timeline in which Venat was not present to find out about Meteion in our original history and a new timeline in which she does find out about her and place the tracker on Meteion.
After which, she plays the script we gave her on how our original history played out and her role in it, so that our description of the future came true for her to witness as Hydaelyn.

The third option is that Venat DID witness Meteion in the original timeline but got mindwiped, leading to her original plan of using the Moon as an Ark. This i think could be used to explain why there was no divergent timeline.
But theres a problem with that. She has the navigation crystal, which means she WASN'T mindwiped.

Thus my friend and i concluded that we did infact create a branched timeline in keeping with the time travel rules set out in Shadowbringers.
Conlusion being: Our presence in Elpis changed the past, but due to when it was changed our character becomes a resident of that timeline and ends up in the diverged future wholly unaware that it diverged in the first place upon returning to the Source.

We do not notice in-universe because we told Venat all about every single event that led to the moment we went to the First to gather information on Elpis. Remember, she told us about how the Echo worked and we know from Emet that every Ancient had it. We can't see the divergence because we're living in it, basically.
While we were telling her stories of our adventures, she was literally watching them via the Echo and used that information to ensure that the diverged timeline resembled the original one we came from with the beacon on Meteion being the sole point of difference.
Which means theres a timeline out there where we didn't chance upon Emet and left before discovering Meteion, leading to our use of the Moon Ark and that universe ending anyway because the Final Days was on a universal scale to begin with.

... But thats just a theory XD

[RyuDragnier]

snip

I'm sorry, but it seems you did not pay attention.

When we told Hythlodaeus, Venat, and Emet about the future, Emet outright refused to believe it until Meteion started acting up towards the end of the zone, and reluctantly accepted it right as Meteion changed and Hermes betrayed them. It took all that for Emet to believe it. Hythlodaeus was more curious if it was true or not. Neither would have accepted the truth for what it was after the mind wipe, as the events of their time in that zone was completely erased from their minds along with anything that could be used as evidence to corroborate it. Not to mention how Hermes would have reacted if he was told what he did. The entire thing was a stable time loop, with Venat realizing that she needed to make sure history repeated as best it could in order to give us a final choice and fighting chance. Our options were to do nothing and accept death, run away and live a little longer (moon), or stand and fight to the bitter end.

[Sylve]

I'm sorry, but it seems you did not pay attention.
[/hb]

I may have paid more attention than you did tbh, though I'll freely admit I'm not a super lore junkie, i just like to lurk. And speculate.

Emet and co find our story utterly unbelievable because our descriptions of them do not mesh with how they believe they would act in those circumstances.
Emet KNEW he was under the effect of Kairos during the events we witnessed. Hermes made the surrogate memory intentionally revealing that Kairos had been used on him and only lied about the circumstance of it. We see that in real time when we go to see them after they leave the tower, though refraining from interacting with them.

Had a former convocation member come forward to him and told him exclusively about Dynamis and Meteion (Entirely leaving out future events and the individual who brought that information), Emet would have investigated because, in his own words, Even if he found the claim utterly ridiculous, he would still investigate any potential threat to the planet/convocation. Exactly as he did with our claim in the first place. He outright called us liars but did set about finding the truth of the matter for himself.

Emet-Selch:
- Save your thanks. I did not say I believed your ridiculous story.
- But as Emet-Selch, I have a duty to examine any potential threat to our existence. No matter how ludicrous or personally offensive I may find it.

Those being Emets own words to us. He refused to believe in our story but investigated regardless.
Had Venat told him about Meteion, he would have investigated. Venat could have taken to him to the selfsame location we saw the swarm take flight or even showed him her unaltered memories of the betrayal via the Echo that Emet himself told us all Ancients have.

So,
- Venat was never present originally.
- Venat was present and mindwiped originally.
- Venat was present, not mindwiped originally.

For the first to be true, There would be no beacon on Meteion for us to follow in an unchanged future.
For the second to be true, the beacon would be present but Hydaelyn would have no idea what Meteion is, nor produce a navigation crystal or test us in combat to see if we had the strength to fight her.
For the last to be true, Venat would have to have allowed the Final Days and all that followed to occur with no foreknowledge gained from us about what was to come.

Thus, the paradox.
If it was the first option, congrats, we changed the future and Shadowbringers taught us that means a divergent timeline.
Should the second one be accurate, we have the Beacon but Hydaelyn wouldn't know about it to track Meteion nor test our worthiness given she isn't aware of what caused the Final Days either.
And the last option is the only one that even comes close to freeing us from a diverged timeline, but it fails at the last moment because if Venat knew Meteion was responsible AND tagged, why did she then not pass on that information knowing full well that Meteion is a threat to their lives and the planet they love so dearly?

She only knows these things ... Because we changed the past by providing that information to her.
The best case scenario is that our experiences from ARR to Endwalker is the diverged timeline, it explains a little why we always felt like Hydealyn knew more than she was letting on.
AKA, The divergence happened when Venat was present, not mindwiped AND had our story told to her from a timeline in which she was not originally going to be mindwiped or present. We didn't return to a changed future because as Shadowbringers established, we CANNOT change the past to change the future. We simply returned to our timeline that diverged on that fateful day in Elpis.
We will likely never get an absolute answer from Yoshi-P one way or another. However, they established rules for time travel and I'll trust them not to break their own rule one expansion later. So I'll believe we were always in a diverged timeline.