[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

[Loggos]

I'm one of like five people who like Zenos so keep that in mind.

Zenos is this powerful because he consumed what was left of the Mothercrystal. He's also now in a place powered purely by emotional thought, and he's basically harnessed homicidal psychopath. But he's still a mortal. Also I do think you're both tired from fighting Meteion.

(Ah, I would have assumed that he burned all the aether of the Mother Crystal to summon/transform himself into the dragon primal and fuel his space travel but maybe he absorbed more than he needed.)

But back to Dynamis:

I would still argue that we have just fought a being that a) constists entirely of Dynamis if I'm not mistaken and b) has absored the despair of pretty much the whole universe which results in so much power that it can end our world and potentially the rest ofthe universe, too.

So the power Zenos can draw from his psychopathic determination would be somewhat comparable to that of The Apocalypse. It just doesn't feel fitting to me that the emotions of "I only live for the battle" are even remotely in the same league as the despair of thousands of dying civilisations - some of whom are apparently more emotionally and intellectually advanced than we can imagine.
I guess, one can write the story like that but for someone who doesn't enjoy Zenos this feels too convenient.

In addition, I would believe that we are also mentally fired up because we just received a huge dose of Hope, Love, and Friendship, and Salvation of the World (as cheesy as one may find this).

So if Dynamis runs purely on thoughts and emotions and we should have an intense emotional high after defeating one of the most powerful beings in existence (how is that for battle lust), saving the universe (and particularly our friends and loved ones) and even freeing Meteion then personally I would still feel like the Dynamis power of our own state of mind should blast Zenos into the horizon.

But most importantly, even though it would be very logical to assume that we are tired I think this would go against everything Zenos desires.

He wants to defeat us at our peak. He wants to have the ultimate thrill of the battle. It doesn't seem like him to exploit our weakness in order to get an advantage over us. He had several chances in the past to fight us where he had the upper hand but he is hunting the ultimate experience. He wants to prove that he can defeat us in our most powerful state or die by our hand. So, if we were tired this would completely undermine his own motives.

I also think that the story-telling of the last scene emphasises this. We don't "seem" tired. We seem like we are full of resolution (or even euphoria depending on what answer you pick), we Are powered up by Dynamis and the whole cinematic framing is that of two eager, powerful enemies who can't wait to battle it out. Not of two worn-out warriors (Zenos has been carrying our battle platform the whole time. I would believe this also quite tiring.)

So all in all the way I interpret it, the story is implying we are at our peak because we are finally "ready" to face of with Zenos.

Zenos is the rival to the WoL because he's your opposite. You fight for those you love. He fights for the sake of fighting. But you both enjoy the fight.

That makes sense and I agree that this contrast is in itself very effective. As I said in my original post, the idea (and the aesthetics) of the fight were great. It was just that for me Zenos could not fill the role of That Nemesis because personally I didn't think his writing and the way his motives were delivered in the past were in any way compelling or captivating enough for him to earn that spot. But again, that's my own preference.

[Loggos]

Zenos is a fairly one note, on dimensional character. Whether you like him or not is largely going to come down to whether the one thing he has appeals to you or not. For some people they like him, for some of us we're not into it and that leaves him with nothing else to offer us as a character.

I agree and my point is not to argue that I'm objectively right or anything.

I know that this is the subjective perception of someone who doesn't like this character, so because I felt the finale was so impressive, his inclusion in it obviously had me think many thoughts, too, haha.

As I said before, I wish they would have given us a choice. You can either battle it out with him on his terms (and I'm sure there are enough Zenos fans that would have made the development of his fight worth it, esp. considering it's not a full trial and there is a lot of other content in the game that only appeals to specific sub-groups of players).
Or you can just leave him.

That would have been the ultimate freedom to role-play your WoL like you want to.

[Crushnight]

Obviously massive spoilers for Endwalker

Zenos deserves nothing and that final fight just compounded how much I just hate how Zenos has been treated since 4.0 .

Zenos was a good villain in 4.0, since then however he has been taken off the rails and become narratively bankrupt. I knew Ishikawa wasn't going to be able to pull it off, she tried her best but Zenos is not the type of character she can write for.

Zenos is a force of nature character and while he has been shown to have great power, none of that power has been earned by himself. His bodyjacking of the Elezen resistance member is the only instance of subconscious bodyjacking making it feel way more artificial in his power boosting.

Nothing Zenos has done deserved bringing him back as everything he has done could be done by someone else in universe so what was the point? To give him a big instance fight? Just not worth the narrative stigma imo.


Zenos can survive committing suicide via slicing his own throat against his conscious will, he'll survive being left at the edge of the universe with the power source of dynamis being effortlessly tapped into by him because all his power boost has to take no effort because Zenos is just the best no matter what he does.

Except when he wants to die ofc.

Sigh I was sick of Zenos before EW and EW just made it worse.

[StriderShinryu]

Frankly, I mostly enjoyed the way Zenos ended up being treated. He was basically put in his place repeatedly by multiple people telling him to just get over the whole rage hard-on he's been carrying forever now. He was basically shown to have just been being used by Fandaniel. He essentially disappeared for most of the expansion only to show back up as a glorified taxi. Then, in the end, we were actually given the option to basically tell him ourselves that he was full of it and he could just go on believing whatever he wanted to about our motivations as he clearly wasn't getting the message otherwise (which would only have been improved if we could have literally just walked away and left him to die in a blackhole).

[Alleo]

I was glad that the last fight gave at least options to not agree with all his talk. I just said to him that I cant let him leave since nobody knows what he will do if he gets out and gets bored again...of course the fight(s) itself were not that hard and thus they have to give him plot powers again...I just take it that the WoL simply was so tired after fighting the Endsinger that Zenos got some hits in. The last part where we both charged up our fists was so over the top that I had to laugh. One of the few times that show the WoL fighting in a cutscene and it has to be against that guy.

I wished that Fandaniel would have offed him or something, because other than being a plattform for us he was not really necessary for the plot. In the end I would have liked it more if the WoL got badly wounded against the Endsinger. Then after that one talk they will collapse not able to get to the point where they can leave and before all is lost they get saved by the device. Instead Endsinger seemingly does nothing to us (of course that could just be the limitation on what they are allowed to show) and we nearly lose our life against that man.

The option to walk away without a fight would have been the best one for my character. To not give him the conclusion he wanted. Not after all he has done.

[Crushnight]

Sorry I have to give one last comment but I have never been a fan of

"give the spoiled brat his bottle" which is exactly what happens with Zenos

[Loggos]

Frankly, I mostly enjoyed the way Zenos ended up being treated. He was basically put in his place repeatedly by multiple people telling him to just get over the whole rage hard-on he's been carrying forever now. He was basically shown to have just been being used by Fandaniel. He essentially disappeared for most of the expansion only to show back up as a glorified taxi. Then, in the end, we were actually given the option to basically tell him ourselves that he was full of it and he could just go on believing whatever he wanted to about our motivations as he clearly wasn't getting the message otherwise (which would only have been improved if we could have literally just walked away and left him to die in a blackhole).

I completely agree with the "being put in his place" aspect and that his redundancy in the story serves him right. (And lol at "glorified taxy" because it's true.)

But that's why it made me so salty that it is him who almost kills me, haha. If we could have really "put him in his place" for good with that last fight then that would have been a lot more enjoyable to me.

(People have brought up good arguments re: why he is so strong, I still have my reservations and have brought up some counter arguments and I don't think any perspective is wrong here. We are talking space magic that can conveniently be scaled up and down for story-purposes anyways. So I'm fully aware that it remains a completely subjective question of taste.)

I was glad that the last fight gave at least options to not agree with all his talk. I just said to him that I cant let him leave since nobody knows what he will do if he gets out and gets bored again...of course the fight(s) itself were not that hard and thus they have to give him plot powers again...I just take it that the WoL simply was so tired after fighting the Endsinger that Zenos got some hits in. The last part where we both charged up our fists was so over the top that I had to laugh. One of the few times that show the WoL fighting in a cutscene and it has to be against that guy.

I wished that Fandaniel would have offed him or something, because other than being a plattform for us he was not really necessary for the plot. In the end I would have liked it more if the WoL got badly wounded against the Endsinger. Then after that one talk they will collapse not able to get to the point where they can leave and before all is lost they get saved by the device. Instead Endsinger seemingly does nothing to us (of course that could just be the limitation on what they are allowed to show) and we nearly lose our life against that man.

The option to walk away without a fight would have been the best one for my character. To not give him the conclusion he wanted. Not after all he has done.

This describes how I feel but much shorter and much more concisely than I ever could.
(Although I'm still not sure whether the story implies we are tired because I still believe Zenos wants to fight us at our absolute peak and not get an advantage due to tiredness which could lower his obsessive ecstasy he is expecting from The Ultimate Fight against us. For me the story implies that we are finally "ready" to face Zenos and that it's exactly how he envisions it.)

In the end I would have liked it more if the WoL got badly wounded against the Endsinger. Then after that one talk they will collapse not able to get to the point where they can leave and before all is lost they get saved by the device. Instead Endsinger seemingly does nothing to us (of course that could just be the limitation on what they are allowed to show) and we nearly lose our life against that man.

Yep, that's exactly how I wished the ending would have taken place.

[WhiteArchmage]

Sorry I have to give one last comment but I have never been a fan of

"give the spoiled brat his bottle" which is exactly what happens with Zenos

That was my thing with him.

I wanted to have the option to not fight him, ever. Let him get eaten by something bigger, let him be unfought. Heck, if we must fight him let us swat him aside like a fly and deny him his "glorious battle" he wanted. I would have even been down with a "power of friendship" talk with him as we embrace him and send him off to the Lifestream. Almost anything except making him the final boss, which he even stole the role by a technicality! (I'd really consider him a post-final boss, much like how the Final Boss of ARR is Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea comes afterwards just for some narrative importance as he's near impossible to lose against)

Basically, I feel Ishikawa didn't even want to deal with him but they'd hyped him up too much already that they just had to shoehorn him in somewhere

[KageTokage]

I really hope they're still hiding a proper explanation for why he was having unusually clear dreams of the Final Days, because it was the only thing that was keeping me very interested in him...though if that requires bringing him back again, then no thanks.

[Roda]

That was my thing with him.

I wanted to have the option to not fight him, ever. Let him get eaten by something bigger, let him be unfought. Heck, if we must fight him let us swat him aside like a fly and deny him his "glorious battle" he wanted. I would have even been down with a "power of friendship" talk with him as we embrace him and send him off to the Lifestream. Almost anything except making him the final boss, which he even stole the role by a technicality! (I'd really consider him a post-final boss, much like how the Final Boss of ARR is Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea comes afterwards just for some narrative importance as he's near impossible to lose against)

Basically, I feel Ishikawa didn't even want to deal with him but they'd hyped him up too much already that they just had to shoehorn him in somewhere

I'm of the same mind

I think his entire sequence could've been saved if we had the option to just peace out. Have the teleport button drop down BEFORE the fight, right after his little speech, and let us choose if we want to give into his projection, or for us to deny his only defining character trait. And by god, even if his fight would be the most fun and interesting fight mechanically in the game, I wouldn't do it, just because him not getting his stupid wish is just that much more satisfying, narratively.

Honestly, it's disappointing, because I do tend to like pest/rival characters. But that role is NOT one for the main antagonist of an epic story. They're a sometimes snack. If he just showed up from time to time to have a blast fighting, and that's it, that'd be fine. Just don't waste my time showing me just how BORED he is ALL THE TIME. You know what they say... "if you're bored then you're boring."