Gath wonders....

[Destain]

Well, Gath has been thinking about SE's vision on difficulty.

Gath wonders if SE thinks that tedious and difficult walk hand in hand.

Gath says this because Yoshi said that both the Moogle and Ifrit were going to be difficult as well as obtaining the weapons.

Gath knows that Ifrit and Moogle, both, are not hard at all, they are just tedious to kill over and over for their weapons.

Gath knows that they plan to better the drop rates which takes some of the tedium away, but, that is not where Gath is getting at.

Gath just wants to know, Where does SE draw the line between tedious and difficult?

Gath's 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

You act like there was no learning curve to those fights. I'm glad you got win on your first tries cus your so leet gath! J/k

They were easy after you spammed them nonstop. You think anything is going to maintain difficulty after you 20th time doing it?

Yeah, it took you a day or two to get a win just like most people. So how about you propose some ideas on how to make these fights more difficult so SE know what you want instead of just giving the mob more HP?

I wouldn't mind increased situational abilities. I.E. GLA pop shield bash at just the right time to stop party devastating move... If no gla in party LNC will need to leg sweep. You get the idea.

[Gath]

You act like there was no learning curve to those fights. I'm glad you got win on your first tries cus your so leet gath! J/k

They were easy after you spammed them nonstop. You think anything is going to maintain difficulty after you 20th time doing it?

Yeah, it took you a day or two to get a win just like most people. So how about you propose some ideas on how to make these fights more difficult so SE know what you want instead of just giving the mob more HP?

I wouldn't mind increased situational abilities. I.E. GLA pop shield bash at just the right time to stop party devastating move... If no gla in party LNC will need to leg sweep. You get the idea.

Because they were not hard. In any MMO figuring out a "main" boss from content is trial and error, but the sheer challenge is different from doing it multiple times.

Ifrit was not hard, the animation lag was and that's not a real challenge, it is crappy programming.

Moogle was easy because it didn't revolve around the moogles using animation lag to their advantage.

Pandy Warden in FFXI was hard, even though the two hour kill strategy was solid it still took an immense amount of skill of 18 different players.

Absolute virtue was also hard, as well as Vrtra, Nid, Byakko, etc.

Gath's 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

[Chardrizard]

Pandy Warden in FFXI was hard, even though the two hour kill strategy was solid it still took an immense amount of skill of 18 different players.

Pandy Warden in FFXI wasn't hard, it took a total of 3 attempts for the first kill iirc. It took so long to kill because it takes forever to farm all the pops. If they let you re-attempt Pandy Warden multiple times they are joke.

It's also took immense amount of skill for Ifrit/Moogle but it was faster learning curve due to multiple attempts, practices makes perfect.

Absolute virtue was also hard, as well as Vrtra, Nid, Byakko, etc.

Absolute Virtue wasn't hard, it was impossible. It was a troll attempt by Tanaka, it wasn't killable without wall of justice.
Then, they nerfed it and it was killed right away with KC DRK burn. They rebuffed it and it was harder because of partial resistance to souleater, it was mindless burn. LOLDIFFICULT. (this was all on lv75 era, i quitted before cap increase)

I admit Vrtra was hard, but it was due the amount of players u needed back then and to make sure everyone is on their duty, it was overall exciting fight.

Nid? Lol. Lol. lol........ Cmon now..

Byakko wasn't hard either, just need to be on balls with cures and multiple stuns, and getting lucky on byakko's triple attack, there was no real strategy, just stay alive.

[Firon]

Pandy Warden in FFXI wasn't hard, it took a total of 3 attempts for the first kill iirc. It took so long to kill because it takes forever to farm all the pops. If they let you re-attempt Pandy Warden multiple times they are joke.

It's also took immense amount of skill for Ifrit/Moogle but it was faster learning curve due to multiple attempts, practices makes perfect.




Absolute Virtue wasn't hard, it was impossible. It was a troll attempt by Tanaka, it wasn't killable without wall of justice.
Then, they nerfed it and it was killed right away with KC DRK burn. They rebuffed it and it was harder because of partial resistance to souleater, it was mindless burn. LOLDIFFICULT. (this was all on lv75 era, i quitted before cap increase)

I admit Vrtra was hard, but it was due the amount of players u needed back then and to make sure everyone is on their duty, it was overall exciting fight.

Nid? Lol. Lol. lol........ Cmon now..

Byakko wasn't hard either, just need to be on balls with cures and multiple stuns, and getting lucky on byakko's triple attack, there was no real strategy, just stay alive.

So much truth in this post. lol AV was just a troll monster.

[Gath]

Pandy Warden in FFXI wasn't hard, it took a total of 3 attempts for the first kill iirc. It took so long to kill because it takes forever to farm all the pops. If they let you re-attempt Pandy Warden multiple times they are joke.

It's also took immense amount of skill for Ifrit/Moogle but it was faster learning curve due to multiple attempts, practices makes perfect.




Absolute Virtue wasn't hard, it was impossible. It was a troll attempt by Tanaka, it wasn't killable without wall of justice.
Then, they nerfed it and it was killed right away with KC DRK burn. They rebuffed it and it was harder because of partial resistance to souleater, it was mindless burn. LOLDIFFICULT. (this was all on lv75 era, i quitted before cap increase)

I admit Vrtra was hard, but it was due the amount of players u needed back then and to make sure everyone is on their duty, it was overall exciting fight.

Nid? Lol. Lol. lol........ Cmon now..

Byakko wasn't hard either, just need to be on balls with cures and multiple stuns, and getting lucky on byakko's triple attack, there was no real strategy, just stay alive.

Yet none of it was tedious, now was it?

All content can be easy with practice, but a lot of times people don't want to practice because of the tedium.

Gath's 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

[Stufoo]

Yet none of it was tedious, now was it?

All content can be easy with practice, but a lot of times people don't want to practice because of the tedium.

The only answer is that you need all types of content (easy drop/quested, tedious grind, and challenging but rewarding), and a lot of it. Dynamis relics were not difficult, they just took time, money, or scamming the LS. They were still very good for the game and kept some playing with something to shoot for. Dynamis overall was fairly shallow though, just relic armors and currency for weapons, and shadow mantle and ring. For a better example you can look at Apollyon and Temenos. These let you upgrade your regular artifact to +1 (bringing something from the past back into relevancy is always nice), added plenty of useful accessories purchased by collecting ancient beastcoins, and the end goal was of course the boss fights for Homam and Nashira armor sets. It's not hard at all to target the correct areas for your artifact items and then just hope it drops, it's not hard to get 75 beastcoins eventually, and after a bit only far below average linkshells will wipe to Omega, but that's okay.

Final Fantasy XI was very, very tedious, even the majority of the fights were, and the major challenge to the game was making sure each person was fulfilling their role, not the roles themselves, but the content was robust and repeating it wasn't too much of a hassle, it usually spread its rewards out in a way to reward people who go back in at least some way (ancient beastcoins being bazaarable, currency/alexandrites being worth something is a nice boost while you're farming relic armor/DKP in dynamis or getting your salvage armor materials, sky triggers being bazaarable, etc.) To say that there is no room for tedium in a well designed game is pretty blind because when you can get the incentives and weight of effort correct it only adds to the longevity and depth of the game's content. The tedious things should be done along the way to the goal though, not the focus of it, and that's where XIV has failed so far. The content (if you call it that, I don't) we have now is shit, of course it is, with everything being made useless by each new patch and having to grind out a boss until luck favors you on a drop, but making the drop rates higher would only make you finish it faster. You need to make it deeper, not quicker.

No one would play FFXI for 8 years if the only boss fight was the Ifrit avatar battle either, we get that, Yoshida gets that, and he's working on it. I feel as though the content in XIV has been deflated, it just feels empty, and not specifically in the sense of challenge. It would probably sit easier on people's stomachs if the weapon drop rates were five or so percent better and the totems were used for other things as well, such as unique accessories or buff potions and good food, or unique synth materials that fighters could sell. It really just feels incomplete to any other event imaginable. Raids get solved in a week, that's normal. Fights get beaten in a day or two as well. The true test is things like maybe Crystal Tower, and the large, large style content overhauls that are comparable to Dynamis, Sea/Limbus, Abyssea. Ifrit is small fish, if it bugs you so much, quit playing for a bit. Won't be missing anything.

Also, to Nidhogg and Byakko being hard: lol

They were powerful, not hard. That's what happens when you design monsters for a game that is okay with you dying. FFXIV right now is stupid in the sense that it is designed for one tank 8-man parties, so it's never okay for the tank to be in peril, by design. Nidhogg didn't give a fuck about one tank, he had terror, mighty strikes, shadow wiping wing attacks, double attack, and god help you if you were in front of his mouth, and that's not even mentioning Spike Flail if you mess up the positioning or aggro. The same thing with byakko, paralyze, diaga, triple attack and fast speed. They were allowed to kill you because death was okay. They didn't jump away and dash around the arena being completely ineffective for 30 seconds while you recovered MP and healed the tank up.

[Signy]

[...]

Well i think yoshi is waiting for 2.0 to add proper content, every content we are getting now is something that he can port easy to 2.0 (like instanced dungeon).

[Kiara]

The tedious things should be done along the way to the goal though, not the focus of it, and that's where XIV has failed so far. The content (if you call it that, I don't) we have now is shit, of course it is, with everything being made useless by each new patch and having to grind out a boss until luck favors you on a drop, but making the drop rates higher would only make you finish it faster. You need to make it deeper, not quicker.

I feel as though the content in XIV has been deflated, it just feels empty, and not specifically in the sense of challenge.

Hi Stu, Gath,

Some good thoughts in this thread.

I definitely agree that we need more *depth* to our current "Max Level Content."

I would rather Yoshida-san and his team design out an engaging *System* (with multiple incentives and goals) first, which could then inform the addition of Dungeons / Raids and Primals / Boss Fights (and tie them all together), even at the cost of, say, an additional standalone Battle, if it meant that we got a meaningful XIV equivalent of a SKY or Dynamis.

While Dynamis (early days) may have been a bit "shallow," it kept me interested and busy. I loved taking on Shadow Lord, or trying to get the Rare Currency Drops, working toward Relic Weapons, or trying to help my friends get their Attestations (of Might, Justice, etc.). Even after, say, 50 times of going through Dynamis, I was still engaged because there were goals to keep striving for and different paths / reasons, multiple NMs, etc.

Or SKY (Tulia) in a similar way, with multiple Trigger NMs / Byakko, Suzaku, Genbu, Seiryuu, Kirin, etc.

Even though we'd get brand new lands in 2.0, the *System* they design could be ported over without throwing away their work (i.e., the NMs / Goals / Drops) could all still move over 2.0 just fine.

If every patch up until 2.0 is only going to be a standalone (separate) "Primal of the Month"-type situation, where we spam entering and hoping to get their 7 drops, before rinsing and repeating on another new Primal / Dungeon with its drops, with no long term goals... I'd be pretty bummed out.

Here's to hoping we get something deeper and more meaningful before 2.0 hits.

[Jinko]

Because they were not hard. In any MMO figuring out a "main" boss from content is trial and error, but the sheer challenge is different from doing it multiple times.

Ifrit was not hard, the animation lag was and that's not a real challenge, it is crappy programming.

Moogle was easy because it didn't revolve around the moogles using animation lag to their advantage.

Pandy Warden in FFXI was hard, even though the two hour kill strategy was solid it still took an immense amount of skill of 18 different players.

Absolute virtue was also hard, as well as Vrtra, Nid, Byakko, etc.

Gath's 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

Gath forgot to talk in 3rd person .. /sigh

Not directed at Gath..
as others have mentioned about Ifrit and moogle though.
1:- next time dont' look up the best strategy.
2:- If we could only do content once a day or week it would have taken weeks and months before the first kill.

[electrikALIEN]

Gath forgot to talk in 3rd person .. /sigh

It's the first time in memory he hasn't sounded like a cave man.