Quote Originally Posted by Rulakir View Post
I thought ShB was clear that having the Echo wasn't the determining factor as others stated even though it wasn't triggered for them they still felt an overwhelming sense of loss. Unless I missed where it was specifically detailed that no Echo = no Ancient, in which case I'd like to read the dialog where that was said.
As far as I can recall, the only people who said that were Ryne (who has the Echo) and the other Scions (after they have context for what the star shower means). I can't think of any mention of a deep loss from anyone in the Crystarium who didn't get the Echo (and obviously before Shadowbringers, but that kinda goes without saying since the two weren't connected yet).

I said they had no reason not to believe it was beyond his power, not that he could actually do it. Given that Emet can pluck souls out of the Lifestream I wouldn't think it outside the realm of possibility. There could be a few factors as to why Sri Lakshmi couldn't do it, including that the Qalyana wouldn't have had that knowledge to impart or she was simply too weak a primal to manage it.
This isn't relevant, but I do want to state that Emet didn't just pick a dormant soul from the lifestream but a living person, I have to imagine there's a difference between the two.

Back to the topic, while it's undoubtedly true that

The WoL has acted in opposition to the Ascians since the beginning, so it's in Hydaelyn's best interest to protect us. Plus, as she/Minfilia said in HW, "As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn." We know she conjures star showers and sends out an automated message to recruit.

One of my gripes is how little free will the WoL seems to have compared to others with the Echo. I didn't see Ysayle acting on behalf of Hydaelyn, she had her own agenda to the extent of becoming a primal. The same could be said for Arenvald, arguably even Krile, etc. The only one who's been worse than us when it comes to doing Hydaelyn's bidding was Minfilia. Side note that I don't see how the Scions can claim she wasn't tempered after the tempering of Thordan's Twelve where they retained free will up to the point that they couldn't deny him. If Minfilia wasn't tempered then she was an outright zealot and may as well have screamed "My life for YOU!" when she stayed behind to get caught up in Flow. Anyway. :P
I feel like this is a mischaracterization of Meteor!WoL (since everyone has their own WoL obviously) and Minfilia. I don't think Minfilia cares as much about Hydaelyn as its own being, moreso that she cares about helping as many people in need as she can and view Hydaelyn as her vehicle for doing so, possibly unaware of her true nature or possibly in spite of it. Similarly, WoL might be Hydaelyn's champion, but it's not like they're ever following direct orders. More often than not, their motives align: the Ascians are using Ultima Weapon to threaten Eorzea, you and all your friends live there; the Ascians are helping the Evil Pope is trying to start a massive holy war, well you've just made yourself a second home in Ishgard and would prefer not to see it turned into a battlefield; Ala Mhigo and Doma are crushed under the boot of an imperial nation, I mean this one kinda is all you idek what Hydaelyn thinks of this.

I don't necessarily believe the WoL is tempered, but we have been indoctrinated and groomed. I also don't believe Hydaelyn is good or evil and Venat probably believed in what she was doing, but that doesn't mean the end result wasn't excessive and horrific. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

This is all just my opinion based on what I've seen in game. I don't have any expectations of Hydaelyn (or Zodiark) being presented as anything but morally grey specifically because it would tick off a lot of players if that's not the case.
I disagree that WoL is groomed, for reasons I've stated above, but I pretty much agree with the rest of what you've said. I don't think Hydaelyn has ever done anything actively malicious, I'm not even sure if she's capable of it. Until we meet him, I will also extend the same caution to Zodiark as we've seen the tempered act beyond what their primal dictates before with Ramuh, who is probably the most approachable Primal we've met so far, and the tempered sylphs who are hyper-territorial.