Sharlayan origins and the Endwalker Trailer

[KageTokage]

Hmm, makes me wonder what it was exactly the sharlayans were doing reaching into the aetherial sea with the anti tower.

monitoring the source of the final days if it was caused by tampering with the lifestream would be something they would look into. Examining why everything on the world is mortal when they didn't used to be before the sundering maybe?

The first lorebook described them as trying to research "the very fate of the star" at the Antitower, which gave off very strong vibes that they know much, MUCH more about what's going on with Hydaelyn and the world at large then the average individual.

I'm just curious as to how they intend to weather/escape a planetary apocalypse that took an artificial god to repress because it seems less a question of if they know about the Final Days and more what they know about it.

[GoldStarz]

I thought ShB was clear that having the Echo wasn't the determining factor as others stated even though it wasn't triggered for them they still felt an overwhelming sense of loss. Unless I missed where it was specifically detailed that no Echo = no Ancient, in which case I'd like to read the dialog where that was said.

As far as I can recall, the only people who said that were Ryne (who has the Echo) and the other Scions (after they have context for what the star shower means). I can't think of any mention of a deep loss from anyone in the Crystarium who didn't get the Echo (and obviously before Shadowbringers, but that kinda goes without saying since the two weren't connected yet).

I said they had no reason not to believe it was beyond his power, not that he could actually do it. Given that Emet can pluck souls out of the Lifestream I wouldn't think it outside the realm of possibility. There could be a few factors as to why Sri Lakshmi couldn't do it, including that the Qalyana wouldn't have had that knowledge to impart or she was simply too weak a primal to manage it.

This isn't relevant, but I do want to state that Emet didn't just pick a dormant soul from the lifestream but a living person, I have to imagine there's a difference between the two.

Back to the topic, while it's undoubtedly true that

The WoL has acted in opposition to the Ascians since the beginning, so it's in Hydaelyn's best interest to protect us. Plus, as she/Minfilia said in HW, "As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn." We know she conjures star showers and sends out an automated message to recruit.

One of my gripes is how little free will the WoL seems to have compared to others with the Echo. I didn't see Ysayle acting on behalf of Hydaelyn, she had her own agenda to the extent of becoming a primal. The same could be said for Arenvald, arguably even Krile, etc. The only one who's been worse than us when it comes to doing Hydaelyn's bidding was Minfilia. Side note that I don't see how the Scions can claim she wasn't tempered after the tempering of Thordan's Twelve where they retained free will up to the point that they couldn't deny him. If Minfilia wasn't tempered then she was an outright zealot and may as well have screamed "My life for YOU!" when she stayed behind to get caught up in Flow. Anyway. :P

I feel like this is a mischaracterization of Meteor!WoL (since everyone has their own WoL obviously) and Minfilia. I don't think Minfilia cares as much about Hydaelyn as its own being, moreso that she cares about helping as many people in need as she can and view Hydaelyn as her vehicle for doing so, possibly unaware of her true nature or possibly in spite of it. Similarly, WoL might be Hydaelyn's champion, but it's not like they're ever following direct orders. More often than not, their motives align: the Ascians are using Ultima Weapon to threaten Eorzea, you and all your friends live there; the Ascians are helping the Evil Pope is trying to start a massive holy war, well you've just made yourself a second home in Ishgard and would prefer not to see it turned into a battlefield; Ala Mhigo and Doma are crushed under the boot of an imperial nation, I mean this one kinda is all you idek what Hydaelyn thinks of this.

I don't necessarily believe the WoL is tempered, but we have been indoctrinated and groomed. I also don't believe Hydaelyn is good or evil and Venat probably believed in what she was doing, but that doesn't mean the end result wasn't excessive and horrific. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

This is all just my opinion based on what I've seen in game. I don't have any expectations of Hydaelyn (or Zodiark) being presented as anything but morally grey specifically because it would tick off a lot of players if that's not the case.

I disagree that WoL is groomed, for reasons I've stated above, but I pretty much agree with the rest of what you've said. I don't think Hydaelyn has ever done anything actively malicious, I'm not even sure if she's capable of it. Until we meet him, I will also extend the same caution to Zodiark as we've seen the tempered act beyond what their primal dictates before with Ramuh, who is probably the most approachable Primal we've met so far, and the tempered sylphs who are hyper-territorial.

[EaraGrace]

The first lorebook described them as trying to research "the very fate of the star" at the Antitower, which gave off very strong vibes that they know much, MUCH more about what's going on with Hydaelyn and the world at large then the average individual.

I'm just curious as to how they intend to weather/escape a planetary apocalypse that took an artificial god to repress because it seems less a question of if they know about the Final Days and more what they know about it.

Given they called the area leading into to the tower the “Pleroma,” a term in Neoplatonism that refers to the abode of God and divinity, I think it’s clear they knew what they were searching for to some extent.

[Rulakir]

As far as I can recall, the only people who said that were Ryne (who has the Echo) and the other Scions (after they have context for what the star shower means). I can't think of any mention of a deep loss from anyone in the Crystarium who didn't get the Echo (and obviously before Shadowbringers, but that kinda goes without saying since the two weren't connected yet).

I forgot to mention G'raha. He doesn't have the Echo, but is 8x rejoined which could only happen if he were a sundered Ancient.

[WhiteArchmage]

I forgot to mention G'raha. He doesn't have the Echo, but is 8x rejoined which could only happen if he were a sundered Ancient.

Or if he were from a timeline that went through the 8th Calamity and went back in time?

[Cilia]

Given they called the area leading into to the tower the “Pleroma,” a term in Neoplatonism that refers to the abode of God and divinity, I think it’s clear they knew what they were searching for to some extent.

What sticks out to me more is Fourchenalt stating they'd know if the Final Days were nigh; this suggest both that they know of the Final Days and when they're "supposed" to happen.

Problem is we kind of opened Pandora's Box by forestalling the fated 8th Calamity, which means Sharlayan's astrological readings of the future aren't accurate anymore... might be why Fourchenault was so irate with us.

[Poisonous]

There's strong evidence at this point that Sharlayan is some sort of inheritor of an Ascian legacy, whether that's Venat's or the Convocation's. I suspect that they were created as an ark of sorts for that legacy, for when the final calamity (or rejoining) comes.

A few interesting tidbits:
1. The Sharlayan symbol is the golden ratio/fibonacci sequence. The original release date for Endwalker 11/23 is Fibonacci day. It's considered the golden number of nature, found all over nature.
2. If you get close, those big spirals look more like DNA Helixes than anything.
3. Thaliak might be associated with Mateus, who is associated with...Lahabrea! Himself considered "the" scholar.

[Vyrerus]

You are a lunatic.

Fitting for Endwalkers, don't you think?

Really, though, it's just that you won't confront the truth. The shards don't count as saving the world, because they are merely 1/14th of the world, and if they are Rejoined, then they are still part of and restore the world. The only way they are possibly lost is through a Flood, as the Ascians did the the 13th(and even then they're hinted at being salvageable somehow from Unukalhai void quests, being a monster farm until then).

With having never been given the knowledge to know what they were actually contesting, Team Hydaelyn, in the form of Ardbert's team, precipitated the Flood of Light on the 1st by slaying an Ascian Prime with a Fivefold Blade of Light. Team Hydaelyn on our end put a stop to it by being given information from the Ascians, not Hydaelyn, then begging for Hydaelyn's intercession but merely receiving Hydaelyn Amp'd Minfilia. One wrong, one right, all to attempt to stop and realign for a Rejoining. A Rejoining that goes on in the first timeline to succeed.

After which, a team that could at best be said to be, "Team WoL" goes about creating a time machine whose power source was made by Ascians, its spatial teleportation by extraterrestrial machine, and its time travel component by a good natured primal. All unaffiliated with Hydaelyn, as well as not guided by her. So they allow us to save the 1st, but in so doing we killed Fandaniel's leash handlers, which has now placed all of the world into jeopardy, since his long term goal, as of now, is total destruction rather than restoration. It's almost like history repeating with us in Ardbert's shoes now that he's literally in ours. And I won't count what the game hasn't told or shown me, even if I did count saving shards from Rejoinings.

So moving onto my crown, shall we?

Despite all his bluster about 1,000 years of prayer, Thordan was a wimp. He not only absorbed Lahabrea, he did siphon some of the Warring Triad's power in the middle of the fight to fuel Ultimate End. It did jack shit to the WoL. In our hypothetical he wins there, and then drains the rest of the Triad's power... maybe. Remember he would also get the second eye of Nidhogg. Who wins that contest of wills? Do we suddenly get Thorhogg? Well, we'll just say he gets another empty eye, so he can hold all of the weakened Triad's juice.

Remember though, they are weakened from 5000+ years of captivity while being used as floating island chain fuel. The danger is that they get out and absorb each other. Each has a simulation about if that happened, so we actually have faced the Warring Triad as a whole in each of their Extreme encounters. Proving ourselves stronger than that, too. So in this thought experiment, Thordan is the one that's stronger than that. Well... guess what. Zenos was stronger than us by far, beating us twice, once after us having grown stronger. So he was more than strong enough to contend even with a fully amp'd Triad primal (thus my intense frustration my first time through Stormblood). Strong enough to contest fully amp'd Thordan. What's more, is because he learns all on his own that he can mantle even very powerful primals using the Resonance, once Thordan tries to temper him, because why would a Garlean be resistant anyway, Zenos resists weakening Thordan. So here we get ThorZen or something, because Zenos would mantle the crap out of him like he did Shinryu. But even if Zenos loses, that means a severely weakened Thordan who likely loses to the rest of the empire, probably to a dreadnaught or other similar big thing. So either way, no planetary destruction. (Alternatively, if we go the ThorHogg route, we possibly get another primal that wants to protect the world but kill all Ishgardians given Nidhogg's duty/life).

Galuf's notes on Eureka are theoretical, and the notes specifically say to keep Eureka sealed forever. The danger is someone discovering it, and then using it for a large act of creation once they realize its true power. Without our intervention leading Ejika to be enthralled, there isn't even a risk since the WoL's intervention is required for the next exploration teams to even succeed. It's another case of, the heroes trying to do good actually causes harm(although in this case it's, the heroes helping some greedy merchants causes harm). By restoring the aether network as we did, we allowed the Primal Eureka out. In our Echo vision after we destroy its avatar, we also learn that Galuf and Co. are responsible for finding Eureka in the first place. Which, until they unearthed it, was sealed and not a danger.

So, sure, I guess I'll concede that we saved the world from Eureka... but we're also responsible for letting it become the threat we have to stop. That's how self contained stories go. And it should be noted that the softer player choice is to merely reseal it, allowing it to continue to be a passive threat to the world. So depending on player choice... there's no saving to be had. I for one, chose Ejikka's path, so that I could rectify my own unwitting blunder.

[Vyrerus]

The first lorebook described them as trying to research "the very fate of the star" at the Antitower, which gave off very strong vibes that they know much, MUCH more about what's going on with Hydaelyn and the world at large then the average individual.

I'm just curious as to how they intend to weather/escape a planetary apocalypse that took an artificial god to repress because it seems less a question of if they know about the Final Days and more what they know about it.

Perhaps by setting up a moon base? ? ?

I definitely want to scope out the forbidden section of their book pit. Knowledge pursues no man, after all. Though I've always been more in line with the Locust Preacher that talks about Orbeck of Vinheim from DS3.

Anyway, something neat to think about with the Antitower in relation to the coming events...

It starts off with a Sharlayan guard. The Porroggo singer. Then you fly into its entrance, whereupon you're in an aetherial realm that seems to have consumed the first floors of the tower, replacing them. Seemingly by design. The furniture floating within has been magicked to make a path for you once you best the guards there, too.

Then you fight a Spriggan in a huge blue rock. Vaguely shaped like the Mothercrystal.

Then you're in the actual tower, running along the ceiling, so though everything appears to be right, it's actually all been turned upside down. It makes me think of the idea of turning everything upside down in Empire Strikes Back as a subtle symbolism for finding out a harsh truth.

After that you fight Calcabrina, which is another Sharlayan guard. Of course... she's also a deformed female by appearance, and her name is lifted from The Divine Comedy. It references a demon on the 5th level. It is is said to mean, "One who walks upon brine." Brine usually refers to highly salty water, but may also refer to a sea or ocean. In essence, this could mean that Calcabrina was the means by which the Sharlayans plumbed the Aetherial Sea. Not just an FFIV reference.

[Cleretic]

Really, though, it's just that you won't confront the truth. The shards don't count as saving the world, because they are merely 1/14th of the world, and if they are Rejoined, then they are still part of and restore the world.

I hope you're either doing an extended bit, or playing devil's advocate far too forcefully, because... well, this is Ascian rhetoric. And I don't even mean the Convocation before the Sundering, I mean 'this is the outlook that the present-day Ascians have, after causing incalculable amounts of loss of life'. We kill Emet-Selch after he says this, because he is an awful dictator and we are among the people he wants to kill with no regard. (Also because he kidnaps a catboy; honestly I feel like on the whole we weigh his crimes differently than we should in those final hours.)

The entire of Shadowbringers outside of him exists to speak against him on this point: everyone on the First is a real person, worthy of respect, life, and love. We fight to let them live, because their lives matter. If Emet-Selch were morally right and of a view we should agree with, Shadowbringers would not have ended in nearly the way it does.

In fact, you can tell he's supposed to be wrong, because trying to take this outlook completely robs all of the game story of... well, everything, actually. By this outlook, nothing has happened since Dalamud exploded. Hell, even before that. It robs the Zodiark-Hydaelyn story of not just any nuance, but any weight or structure.
Hydaelyn's crew? Smashed some stuff, then nothing has happened.
Zodiark's crew? Done no wrong, because they've done nothing. The only casualties have been ants, who don't matter.
ARR's story? Something almost happened, and then it didn't.
HW's story? Something almost happened, and then it didn't. Some guy died to an ant.
SB's story? Nothing happened, at all
ShB's story? Something almost happened, and then it didn't. Two guys died to the same few ants.

That sounds like a pretty bad story if read like that. So that reading's probably wrong!

And... you haven't actually finished the Eureka story, I can tell. There's an ending after you complete the BArsenal. I'll spoiler-tag that, because I don't like spoiling people on stories they haven't read.

After the BArsenal, the WoL and Krile use the now set free but still lingering aether from the weapon-primals to essentially also complete the 'good result' of the choice that wasn't made. If you side with Ejika and let him sacrifice himself to destroy Eureka, then you use that aether to bring him back. If you side with Krile and instead seal it away, you use that aether to destroy Eureka, since the problem was you didn't have enough power to do that safely the first time.

And at the end of all that, we still don't know who made Eureka, where, or when. We've still got nothing but a trail; that Odin was summoned in the time of the Allagans, and that it seemed to somehow end up either in Mhach's hands, or in their general sphere of knowledge. But, given it's a primal (and a primal of pure creation magic, at that), my money would be less on 'the hubris of man' and more on 'Ascian shenaniganery'.

...hell, even in the events of the game, the threat about Eureka wasn't a human using it; it was an Ascian, Emmerololth. Who the Students of Baldesion killed, because she was awful and trying to destroy the planet, full of life that they care about.