Why was my thread about healer dps deleted?

[Drkdays]

A Tank not popping mitigation or a DPS not AoEing/using their support abilities are the equivalent of a Healer not DPSing.
A Tank doesn't need to pop mitigation to Tank
DPS don't have to AoE or use their Battle Litany, Standard Step, etc. in order to do DPS.
A healer doesn't have to DPS.

They're all equally terrible.

Not really. A tank not using mitigation, or a dps not using dps cooldowns is not the same as a healer not dpsing, it's the same as a healer not using mitigation techniques on the party or using healer cooldowns. i. e. not performing their job-specific abilities.

It has nothing to do with dps.

[Silver-Strider]

Not really. A tank not using mitigation, or a dps not using dps cooldowns is not the same as a healer not dpsing, it's the same as a healer not using mitigation techniques on the party or using healer cooldowns. i. e. not performing their job-specific abilities.

It has nothing to do with dps.

A DPS not using their AoE skills is the same though because you're ignoring your DPS options in both cases.
The point is that all these factors slow down a run considerably because you put more strain on other roles.
Doesn't matter if its a dungeon run or an ultimate fight, if you are ignoring parts of your toolkit to any capacity, you're wasting other people's time and effort for selfish reasons and you're a terrible player as a result.

You also never answered whether Macrocosmos was a Heal or DPS skill.

[Visanis]

.When you start a dps class, you are expected to dps. When you start a tank class, you are expected to tank. When you start a heal class, you are expected to dps and heal.

Simply wrong and you should know that if you have done a single piece of content that is harder than a dungeon.

Dps are also expected to use their mitigation. Addle. Feint. Troubadour/tactician/shield samba.

Tanks are expected to dps. Why otherwise would their dps kits be so much more involved with multiple damage gcds, ogcds and combos?

Healers don't get a free pass in dps just because they have to heal, especially when this game doesn't deal anywhere near enough damage to ever justify only healing at any point.

Your arguments always stay the same and the answer to them always stays the same, stop trying to justify how bad and lazy you personally are by using the most extreme examples of disability and/or age.

[AnotherPerson]

Charming.

When you start a dps class, you expect to dps. When you start a tank class, you expect to tank. When you start a healer class, you expect to heal.

When you start a dps class, you are expected to dps. When you start a tank class, you are expected to tank. When you start a heal class, you are expected to dps and heal.

See the core flaw there? Healers are the only class that is expected to excel in two areas. What a strange and unexpected burden to place on a player.


Performing well as a tank means staying alive, cycling through CDs and controlling the pace of the group. Performing well as dps means constant output of dps while avoiding standing in poo. Performing well as a healer means healing your party through unavoidable damage and keeping your tank alive against bosses. But for healers that alone seems to not be good enough.

Are you trolling, or are you being serious? A tank is expected to maintain aggro, don't take avoidable damage, mitigate unavoidable damage, and do DPS. Shadowbringers may have made it easier for tanks to maintain aggro, but they still have to do DPS to keep aggro, or it'll get ripped off by a good DPS player and then they're the ones taking more damage - which the healer then have to heal because of the tank's mistake.

If you have now noticed, all roles have the function to: stay alive and do DPS.

DPS tries to not take avoidable damage from mechanics and has the greatest focus on DPS due to having the largest number of DPS skills.

Tanks tries to not take avoidable damage from mechanics, mitigate incoming damage, and do good DPS to ensure they can maintain aggro and not have it stolen by good DPS players doing 10x their total damage.

Healers tries to not take avoidable damage from mechanics, heal avoidable damage & mistakes, and contribute to DPS when possible. The only difference between tank and healer DPS is that the amount of healer DPS is heavily contingent on both the DPS and the tank playing well (dodging avoidable AoEs reduce the number of heals cast and future casts due to not having a vulnerability up debuff on them, mitigating tankbusters and large amounts of damage reduces the number of heals cast, defeating enemies quickly to reduce the amount of time spent in combat / to transition to the next part of the fight - which means more time for healing abilities to come off cooldown, thus reducing the number of GCD heals being cast again). This is because healers have their DPS and their healing tied to the GCD. Tanks do not - none of their mitigation abilities share a GCD with their DPS skills.

So in worst case, if tank is not mitigating, can't keep aggro, and DPS is doing subpar damage while eating every avoidable mechanic possible? Yes, the healer's goanna end up only healing because they have to carry the whole party's weight on their backs using GCD heals to cover what they can't heal using abilities. Most likely though, they'll end up running out of mana or dying first because the tank can't keep aggro and the healer generated more aggro from healing. If the tank isn't mitigating and the DPS is standing in AoEs nonstop and doing big pulls, but they can keep aggro by doing DPS? Then, healer's just carrying them by constantly healing those mistakes. No one's goanna complain on the healer for not DPSing in this situation.

In both of those particular cases though? The healer's already getting an abnormal burden because of bad party members. These are very big edge cases where the healers can't do anything else because their GCDs are being eaten up healing instead of DPSing. With a good or decent party where tanks do mitigate and DPS does their AoE rotation & Single Target Rotation while avoiding orange aoes, the healer will get a fair amount of downtime, so the healing burden is significantly reduced. This is especially apparent with better gear since gear works fourfold - increasing HP/DEF/DMG on every role and also increasing healing output for healers as well. In fights where players have already done, it's very normal for everyone to avoid easily predictable mechanics, which also contribute to the lack of healing required. Thus, healers are left with a huge amount of downtime in which they don't need to heal - and that time is then used for DPS. This has been true for every content in each expansion.

For Savage, that's even simpler because damage comes out in very spaced out intervals (when the boss starts casting a skill as most autoattacks tickle). Even if you healed with two or three GCDs, you still have the remaining 3/4 of the time to do DPS or sit there and look pretty.

Finally,

Healers are also expected to maintain nearly as constant dps as a dps class, or face scorn and accusations of laziness, as though providing dps as continuously as possible were not an option at all, but a certain requirement.

You do realize again that if people aren't making mistakes and a healer is properly following the ABC - Always be Casting - that they can reach roughly 80% of what a DPS's potential output can reach? This is what the -possible- DPS' potential can reach. In a casual group where the DPS isn't playing 100% efficiently and just using their 1-2-3 combo, you can bet that a non-optimal healer adding some DPSing when they aren't doing anything can reach around the same level or near the same level as a DPS as long as they were following the basic guidelines that all casters follow. They can easily exceed them as well if the DPS don't know their proper DPS rotation especially since healers don't have a rotation. It's just a one-button spam and a DoT every 30 seconds.

And finally, the tank doesn't control the pace of the group. The pace of the group is dictated by the party. Even if the tank wanted a big pull, if healers can't keep up with damage because tank gear is subpar or mitigates poorly, if the party's overall DPS is low, or if healers can't manage their MP properly... those are all things that would stop a big pull from happening. Assuming a tank is the only person controlling the pace of the group is a huge erroneous assumption. Likewise, the party may want to pull more because a tank is single pulling, thus letting the healer basically do nothing but cast their basic attack skill since their oGCDs can keep up with whatever excess damage the tank takes. The tank is definitely given respect to pull first, but in no ways is the tank the one who controls the pace. Controlling the pace is a group effort. If the tank by any reason decides to not tank because they don't like how the party decide the pull.... that's a direct violation of the rules right there for not doing your role and griefing so... quick report.

[Drkdays]

I never said healers shouldn't dps, only that deciding that a healer who doesn't dps is a terrible player without caring about their reasons for not dpsing is

a terrible player.

And no, I don't care about your question. I don't see how it's relevant to the subject of how wrong stigmatizing a healer who focuses purely on healing is.

It really begs the question: who is the truly selfish player, the one who dictates how others should play for their own desire for speed or the player who is happy to perform their role exclusively? I'd be willing to accept that both can be described as a bit selfish, but even that seems to be too painful a truth for many.

Let healers play the way they like. Don't nerd rage.

P. S. The moment you start inventing "facts" about my personality or play style (lazy, does no content, trolling) I indefinitely consider you to have fully yielded to my argument due to an inability to counter it in any factually based way and I can assuredly ignore all your posts. The equivalent of you shouting, "no u!"

[AnotherPerson]

I never said healers shouldn't dps, only that deciding that a healer who doesn't dps is a terrible player without caring about their reasons for not dpsing is

a terrible player.

And no, I don't care about your question. I don't see how it's relevant to the subject of how wrong stigmatizing a healer who focuses purely on healing is.

It really begs the question: who is the truly selfish player, the one who dictates how others should play for their own desire for speed or the player who is happy to perform their role exclusively?

There's... a very BIG divide between a healer who doesn't DPS and a healer who can't find time to DPS. One implies they're trying to use their full kit, the other doesn't.
Whatever their reason is, they should also be aware this is a co-op game and that is something they should be mindful of. If this was a single player game, then more power to them.

But it isn't.

It doesn't matter what I think of them at that point, because it still objectively makes them a bad player for not using their full kit.

It's like saying you wanted to play GNB but never use your powder gauge and just using your regular 1-2-3 combo. It's like saying you're a NIN but you don't want to use mudras, only weaponskills.
It doesn't matter what I think of them... because at that point they're still underutilizing their toolkit. Due to the encounter design of this game and the existence of enrage timers, it can only be looked as 'bad'.

[Grimoire-M]

I never said healers shouldn't dps, only that deciding that a healer who doesn't dps is a terrible player without caring about their reasons for not dpsing is

a terrible player.

And no, I don't care about your question. I don't see how it's relevant to the subject of how wrong stigmatizing a healer who focuses purely on healing is.

It really begs the question: who is the truly selfish player, the one who dictates how others should play for their own desire for speed or the player who is happy to perform their role exclusively? I'd be willing to accept that both can be described as a bit selfish, but even that seems to be too painful a truth for many.

Let healers play the way they like. Don't nerd rage.

We do, in-game. You're still bad if you don't. Math is math. Mathematically you can get away with it to such a degree you have no excuse not to try. And if you try during the period where you're most free and able to learn (ARR-HW, levelling content in SB onwards) it is easy to learn how to heal and DPS efficiently without getting the party killed. But expecting to be catered to for not doing so is frankly killing the role as a whole. You can see it in the shift of roulette demands away from tanks and DPS at peak time and in the quality of the healers you get in casual content the later it gets in every patch, and in how that design affects the players who do get it.

I've sat down and taught Sylphies to DPS before. It was actually easier in ARR where all I had to ask them was to maintain DoTs until they were comfortable with full-on spam. And that was with far less oGCD tools than what we had now plus the clunk of Cleric Stance management and more healing demands thanks to more passive tank damage.

[Silver-Strider]

I never said healers shouldn't dps, only that deciding that a healer who doesn't dps is a terrible player without caring about their reasons for not dpsing is

a terrible player.

And no, I don't care about your question. I don't see how it's relevant to the subject of how wrong stigmatizing a healer who focuses purely on healing is.

It really begs the question: who is the truly selfish player, the one who dictates how others should play for their own desire for speed or the player who is happy to perform their role exclusively? I'd be willing to accept that both can be described as a bit selfish, but even that seems to be too painful a truth for many.

Let healers play the way they like. Don't nerd rage.

What possible reason do you have for NOT contributing to the group?
If you have to carry the group because they suck, fine.
If you're physically unable to due to disability or whatever, fine.

Doing so because "It's not how I want to play" is the very definition of selfish because you only care about yourself in that instance and to hell with your teammates.

You not answering the question is not because you fail to see its relevance but because the skill is contrary to your entire argument and you can't stand it.

[Drkdays]

I daresay the amount of people choosing not to dps because they just don't feel like it, for whatever reason, is likely so small it's really very dumb to even mention them. Meanwhile I'm betting the great many other reasons that vindictive players unhesitantly label as being part of aforementioned group suffer the most from baseless ridicule.

Again (and again and again) I say nothing against dpsing as a healer (yes, I do it myself if and when it is safe and convenient) only against the brainless labeling of healers who, for their own reason, choose to, or are restricted to, focusing the majority of their attention on healing.

I am also against the desire of some outspoken players for even greater focus of dps abilities and requirements for healers when there are already several options available for them and, obviously, no shortage of players utilizing them.

[Silver-Strider]

I am also against the desire of some outspoken players for even greater focus of dps abilities and requirements for healers when there are already several options available for them and, obviously, no shortage of players utilizing them.

This right here is why my question on Macrocosmos is important.