It's time to kill the argument that DPS abilities keep healers from healing.

[IDontPetLalas]

I don't understand this argument.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that since AST is meta the other healers should have just as simple a dps kit when they don't have to juggle as much?

Why? SCH and WHM do not have cards to buff other players. Only SCH has a buff similar to Divination (Chain Strat) and it does not require a build up like AST does prior to 6.0/

AST come 6.0 is getting Minor Arcana back along with Astrodyne (and a new seals system) to make it busy. It deserves to have 1 button nuke and dot.

SCH, SGE and especially WHM do not.

no job *deserves* only 2 DPS skills, cards are basically busywork. People like pretty animations, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it definitely wears off when you find that you end up spending most of a fight hitting the same 2 buttons - and before anyone jump into the why don't you just roll a DPS- I'm not asking for the same DPS as a DPS. I'm asking for some enhanced complexity as the character evolves, that's very different.

Adding a 3rd or even a 4th DPS skill would not force anyone to use them, in fact it would make the path for let's say 75 to 90 even more interesting because franking, just strengthening the one existing dot isn't giving me the impression that there is any growth in my job at all.

[Silver-Strider]

Give me an AoE DoT on all healers and another oGCD damaging skill. Single Target or AoE depending on the class.

Return Aero 3 for WHM. If they want WHM to be more light magic based, then upgrade it to Aeolus and make it a Tornado of Lights. Since they have Assize, a Single Target oGCD that I can use for Damage and maybe some utility as either an MP restore or damage down debuff would be nice.

SCH should have Miasma 2 back for their AoE DoT and an AoE oGCD Aetherflow Spender. Personally, I'd go for Shadowflare because that builds up SCH as their old DoT mage origins again and gives them an AoE Slow effect back.

Give AST an AoE DoT, and call it Nebula or something. They already have 1.5 oGCD damage skills with Earthly Star and Lord of Crowns so I believe they'll be fine with just an AoE DoT added, simply because they have their cards to give them more busy work.

I won't comment on SGE.

If NOTHING else, this way Healers have an AoE DoT to go alongside our AoE nuke so that trash mobs in dungeons die quicker, which is nice utility in that department while making down time in higher tier content feel less dull since we now juggle our AoE and Single Target DoTs. Just this small thing, 2 skills, that's all I'm asking.

[Rosa_Frandlia]

So while this isn't going to be a complete 1-to-1 comparison, I would like to share this anyway.

I played TERA for about 6 or 7 months once it came to PS4, and the healers in that game had sort of a similar case.
While the healer I played(Mystic) had a decent array of damaging abilities, they were so useless to use in content(other than a DoT that reduced defense) because while DPS classes were doing hundreds of thousands(sometimes millions) of damage per hit, you'd only be doing ten thousand damage per hit anyway. It was so bad that healers died out pretty quick in the overworld scene.

I guess a good comparison to 14 would be playing a Healer, but your Chocobo does all the damage for you. It's awful and painfully slow and tedious, and if they ever did remove DPS abilities, I'd go right back to MCH.

What about solo duties in the msq? You can't have your chocobo in them. Even then, some have dps checks in them like the final one in 4.55. I've said it before, removing DPS options from healers would turn them into a limited job worse than Blue Mage.

[ASkellington]

no job *deserves* only 2 DPS skills, cards are basically busywork. People like pretty animations, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it definitely wears off when you find that you end up spending most of a fight hitting the same 2 buttons - and before anyone jump into the why don't you just roll a DPS- I'm not asking for the same DPS as a DPS. I'm asking for some enhanced complexity as the character evolves, that's very different.

Adding a 3rd or even a 4th DPS skill would not force anyone to use them, in fact it would make the path for let's say 75 to 90 even more interesting because franking, just strengthening the one existing dot isn't giving me the impression that there is any growth in my job at all.

I've already said that I wouldn't mind AST having 1 or 2 more dps options if you looked at my previous response.

My argument was: AST is fine with having 2 dps options because it has other things to do than just heal unlike the other healers.

Perhaps deserves is too strong a word, so I'll put it like this:

AST, unlike other healers does not need more dps buttons. Its supposed to be a busy healer, so while we could add 1 or 2 more dps buttons, we can ALSO shorten the CD on cards (both minor and major arcana) and maybe Astrodyne (provided its effects get tweaked). It can have either or and I will be satisfied.

WHM, SGE, and SCH by contrast need something to shorten their down time. I recommend more dps buttons and in WHM's case an actual rotation that feeds into the Blood Lily and have its lilies be oGCDs.

[Jonathan_Clover]

What about solo duties in the msq? You can't have your chocobo in them. Even then, some have dps checks in them like the final one in 4.55. I've said it before, removing DPS options from healers would turn them into a limited job worse than Blue Mage.

I truly agree.

[IDontPetLalas]

I've already said that I wouldn't mind AST having 1 or 2 more dps options if you looked at my previous response.

My argument was: AST is fine with having 2 dps options because it has other things to do than just heal unlike the other healers.

Perhaps deserves is too strong a word, so I'll put it like this:

AST, unlike other healers does not need more dps buttons. Its supposed to be a busy healer, so while we could add 1 or 2 more dps buttons, we can ALSO shorten the CD on cards (both minor and major arcana) and maybe Astrodyne (provided its effects get tweaked). It can have either or and I will be satisfied.

WHM, SGE, and SCH by contrast need something to shorten their down time. I recommend more dps buttons and in WHM's case an actual rotation that feeds into the Blood Lily and have its lilies be oGCDs.

I'll just have to say that I disagree. I would much rather have extra DPS options on AST. I would rather not have card CDs shortened. I don't see the disadvantage to anyone to the extra DPS option, if as you say AST is supposed to be "busy" then this would also fulfill that design. Shortening card CDs? Don't particularly care for that. Now, if they change they way that they propose Redraw for EW, I would like that.

[Dogempire]

I've already said that I wouldn't mind AST having 1 or 2 more dps options if you looked at my previous response.

My argument was: AST is fine with having 2 dps options because it has other things to do than just heal unlike the other healers.

Perhaps deserves is too strong a word, so I'll put it like this:

AST, unlike other healers does not need more dps buttons. Its supposed to be a busy healer, so while we could add 1 or 2 more dps buttons, we can ALSO shorten the CD on cards (both minor and major arcana) and maybe Astrodyne (provided its effects get tweaked). It can have either or and I will be satisfied.

WHM, SGE, and SCH by contrast need something to shorten their down time. I recommend more dps buttons and in WHM's case an actual rotation that feeds into the Blood Lily and have its lilies be oGCDs.

I think you overestimate how busy AST is, sure the cards involve needing to switch between players and assign them, but honestly it's not that hard as long as you don't have issues clicking the party list consistently and know which card goes to who without having to think on it too hard

Plus the cards are meant to be done on the OGCD, meaning that they're just another thing to weave instead of a legitimate part of your DPS rotation

[Kraniel]

The real issue is that SE has made several game design decisions that are so involved with one another that they just can't revamp healers without revamping many other things in the game.

In my personal opinion, what is really lacking is class identity (which we kind of had up until HW~SB).
Just as an example, we could imagine something like :
- WHM being the main healer class, with a myriad of healing skills
- AST being more support-oriented (i.e. buffs/debuffs)
- SCH being a barrier support and DPS hybrid

But let's say that, hypothetically, this was the state of each healer in the current game.
Who would play WHM ? Probably no one, right ?
Even if AST and SCH had only one single-target heal and one AoE heal in their kit, that would have been enough to heal through the current content of the game. Everyone would only want a combination of SCH/AST in their party.
So what would SE do to justify the existence of WHM ? They would bump the healing requirements of raids and dungeons, which would in turn create a "main support/off support" meta where WHM is the king.

And this is where the real problem lies, because SE wants classes to be as equal as possible ; they're doing their best to try to avoid creating a meta where one healer class would be required in a specific dungeon/raid.

This means that :
- All content has to be standardized
- All class toolkits have to be standardized

On top of that, since SE also wants all healer classes to be accessible to new players, this means that healing requirements have to be weak.
So we're essentially looking at : Dumbed-down content that always feels the same. Tada !

Which is why in the end, most of us agree that the only viable solution with the current game design would be to give more DPS spells to healers, so that at least they're more busy during fights. But yeah, if SE thinks that even that is too much to manage for the majority of their playerbase, then unfortunately i think we're stuck with what we have my gents.

I really think it's a shame, because FFXIV allows you to play every class on the same character. This model is pretty convenient for MMOs where you have to adapt your party roster depending on the content you're going for.
"Oh, we need strong heals for this one ? Sure, i'll switch to WHM", is what i wish i was saying instead of "Darn, i can't join as AST because there's already one in the party ? Well it's ok i'll just switch to WHM, it's the same anyway lol"

[GrimGale]

The real issue is that SE has made several game design decisions that are so involved with one another that they just can't revamp healers without revamping many other things in the game.

In my personal opinion, what is really lacking is class identity (which we kind of had up until HW~SB).
Just as an example, we could imagine something like :
- WHM being the main healer class, with a myriad of healing skills
- AST being more support-oriented (i.e. buffs/debuffs)
- SCH being a barrier support and DPS hybrid

But let's say that, hypothetically, this was the state of each healer in the current game.
Who would play WHM ? Probably no one, right ?
Even if AST and SCH had only one single-target heal and one AoE heal in their kit, that would have been enough to heal through the current content of the game. Everyone would only want a combination of SCH/AST in their party.
So what would SE do to justify the existence of WHM ? They would bump the healing requirements of raids and dungeons, which would in turn create a "main support/off support" meta where WHM is the king.

And this is where the real problem lies, because SE wants classes to be as equal as possible ; they're doing their best to try to avoid creating a meta where one healer class would be required in a specific dungeon/raid.

This means that :
- All content has to be standardized
- All class toolkits have to be standardized

On top of that, since SE also wants all healer classes to be accessible to new players, this means that healing requirements have to be weak.
So we're essentially looking at : Dumbed-down content that always feels the same. Tada !

Which is why in the end, most of us agree that the only viable solution with the current game design would be to give more DPS spells to healers, so that at least they're more busy during fights. But yeah, if SE thinks that even that is too much to manage for the majority of their playerbase, then unfortunately i think we're stuck with what we have my gents.

I really think it's a shame, because FFXIV allows you to play every class on the same character. This model is pretty convenient for MMOs where you have to adapt your party roster depending on the content you're going for.
"Oh, we need strong heals for this one ? Sure, i'll switch to WHM", is what i wish i was saying instead of "Darn, i can't join as AST because there's already one in the party ? Well it's ok i'll just switch to WHM, it's the same anyway lol"

DPS variety would be such a simple solution to homogenization too-

[Irenia]

"Oh, we need strong heals for this one ? Sure, i'll switch to WHM", is what i wish i was saying instead of "Darn, i can't join as AST because there's already one in the party ? Well it's ok i'll just switch to WHM, it's the same anyway lol"

Of course, the first only works if the player in question doesn't loathe WHM.

I'm guessing SE wants to avoid situations where players have to choose between having fun and not feeling like their job choice is holding the team back.

In fact, they said they were surprised when they found out more people than expected "mained" multiple jobs, so... who knows.

As for me, anybody playing with me will just have to accept that I will not play current AST, even if it makes the content trivial, and I would rather not raid... so you could also blame people like me for the current situation.