Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

[Warlyx]

I can warp across the map every 10 seconds. *mic drop*

imo blm needs the nin teleport but with a little twist , u dont get interrupted so u can cast fire IV aoe on your feet? teleport away and dont lose the cast time

or maybe the RPR version ...teleport back or front and being able to go back to where u teleported.

[Manamaru]

Losing the DoTs didn't concern me as much until they turned carbuncle into a useless "spin2win" that only sometimes throws out a buff. My only hope is they take the pet mechanics, auto attack, and etc. and transfer that to some kind of limited job with "Beast Master" and join BLU in limited jobs. But I only picked up SMN to relive some semblance of SMTIO. If SE ever does beast master (limited) I may try or main it, but the likelyhood of seeing something like that would be 13.3.

But Alphinaud's "carbuncle protect me" now does more than WoL's ever can. (Or if they redid the custscene, the carbuncle would just spin aggressively at the WoD).

Dropping SMN for another DPS caster is unfortunate, but just not what I'm looking for anymore. At the very least with the stone focus they can split the class more and give SMN a sack or briefcase of stones.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

But we have final fantasy canonical summoners who cast Black Magic DoTs. You're so eager to hate WoW that you don't even know the series' history.

I do though. I've been playing since the 8-bit years off and on and more religiously in the later years. The summoner play I saw in the new job action clips is the summoner of eld. Core final fantasy style. The list of spells given to SMN in any of its old iterations have been varied but also extraneous. The point is to summon impressive mystical beings to join the fray. Any spells beyond those were pretty much window dressing until the later games, like FF10 where Yuna was a glorified White Mage in combat (depending on how you did her sphere grid).

I think most of the gripe is that people who want to stay SMN mains are going to have to relearn the job and well. Considering stand-alone FF makes you learn a new battle system every time, that's very much in-character too. I'm excited for the changes. I hope other people are too.

[Grimoire-M]

-snip-

As one of those mains, I'm not concerned with relearning the job. That's the easy part, despite the walls of text in their new tooltips suggesting otherwise. I am concerned I'm going to be bored as hell after a week because it's too easy. This thread has been 12 pages of "Graphics good Mechanics bad" for a reason. The people who are happy about the Graphics have refused to penetrate the walls of text required to even explain the rotation in the tooltips themselves and that is proof that they don't get it.

I prefer the Shadowbringers iteration from a mechanical standpoint primarily because it presses different buttons more often and gives me things to think about that actually matter. I also prefer the Shadowbringers iteration from a thematic standpoint because it reflects the common thread of Summoners having subjobs throughout the series, and takes the two job archetypes I personally love (Arcanist and Sumoner) and gave both a spin that directly feeds back into the way Primals are uniquely represented in XIV's lore, as it has been in every other Summoner iteration prior to XIV. That lack of uniqueness in the new Summoner rotation is a major problem for me. The Egi summon sequencing is just Bard Phases that borrows aspects of Gunbreaker, Machinist, and Black Mage while stripping back the mechanical flavor tied to Arcanist, and even the core mechanic that has made Casters as a role engaging to begin with, hardcasting spells. Nor does it solve the pet AI problems, only reduces them to singular instances that have already proven to be frustrating for average players within the current and prior iterations. It doesn't even solve the one-button Ruin spam. In fact it exacerbates it by removing a ton of oGCD management as well as consolidating everything down, and like Red Mage I don't see a clear path forward for the job from here, either. It's built to completion on a rotational path that leaves it on rails. That's not a sustainable place to leave a DPS job in the long run.

Frankly speaking, it's a mechanical failure on nearly every front imaginable, and aesthetically too, at least if you consider the former iterations valid. And I get some people don't, but saying ARR-ShB Summoner wasn't a Summoner? Objectively that's incorrect. It has been Summoner for 8 years. And frankly speaking, I think it better represents Summoner as whole than the prior iterations do by actually making you care about how they work mechanically. The common citation for prior iterations (3-6) had narrow mechanical limits. And though I adore those games, I do not think they should remain the basis of the job from a Mechanical standpoint. Golden Sun Djinn system did a better job at representing Summons mechanically than FF ever did, and I still think that's too basic.

Even if I completely agree that this is graphically the best Summoner has ever looked, to pretend that the criticism of the mechanics and even the aesthetics within its Endwalker kit isn't warranted is a big problem. It only harms the job's ability to grow from here given how SE only seems to listen to launch feedback and bank it for later. And that isn't good for anyone. Personally, I never argued against people who wanted the Demi-Summon graphics. I did argue that Demi-Summons should have been the focus of this expansion's improvements instead of bloating the rotation like this because I wanted the gameplay to match the aesthetic of 'Big Honking Summon Attacks' like players have been complaining about. Specifically by having the player execute Akh Morn repeatedly the way the majority of the dragons do. That is a cool moment that encapsulates the aesthetic of Summoner both mechanically AND graphically. Phoenix was a decent attempt but I think it would need more work to distinguish it as we have less to draw on beyond "here's some utility". To me, that would have been a better use of development time. Actively satisfying the gameplay element that's been missing from the job by making the burst window actually feel like burst, while using the filler to cast your attention to the corrupted nature of the primals and turn that power against them. That's the aesthetic we've lost.

[Layte_Aeon]

As one of those mains, I'm not concerned with relearning the job. That's the easy part, despite the walls of text in their new tooltips suggesting otherwise. I am concerned I'm going to be bored as hell after a week because it's too easy. This thread has been 12 pages of "Graphics good Mechanics bad" for a reason. The people who are happy about the Graphics have refused to penetrate the walls of text required to even explain the rotation in the tooltips themselves and that is proof that they don't get it.

I prefer the Shadowbringers iteration from a mechanical standpoint primarily because it presses different buttons more often and gives me things to think about that actually matter. I also prefer the Shadowbringers iteration from a thematic standpoint because it reflects the common thread of Summoners having subjobs throughout the series, and takes the two job archetypes I personally love (Arcanist and Sumoner) and gave both a spin that directly feeds back into the way Primals are uniquely represented in XIV's lore, as it has been in every other Summoner iteration prior to XIV. That lack of uniqueness in the new Summoner rotation is a major problem for me. The Egi summon sequencing is just Bard Phases that borrows aspects of Gunbreaker, Machinist, and Black Mage while stripping back the mechanical flavor tied to Arcanist, and even the core mechanic that has made Casters as a role engaging to begin with, hardcasting spells. Nor does it solve the pet AI problems, only reduces them to singular instances that have already proven to be frustrating for average players within the current and prior iterations. It doesn't even solve the one-button Ruin spam. In fact it exacerbates it by removing a ton of oGCD management as well as consolidating everything down, and like Red Mage I don't see a clear path forward for the job from here, either. It's built to completion on a rotational path that leaves it on rails. That's not a sustainable place to leave a DPS job in the long run.

Frankly speaking, it's a mechanical failure on nearly every front imaginable, and aesthetically too, at least if you consider the former iterations valid. And I get some people don't, but saying ARR-ShB Summoner wasn't a Summoner? Objectively that's incorrect. It has been Summoner for 8 years. And frankly speaking, I think it better represents Summoner as whole than the prior iterations do by actually making you care about how they work mechanically. The common citation for prior iterations (3-6) had narrow mechanical limits. And though I adore those games, I do not think they should remain the basis of the job from a Mechanical standpoint. Golden Sun Djinn system did a better job at representing Summons mechanically than FF ever did, and I still think that's too basic.

Even if I completely agree that this is graphically the best Summoner has ever looked, to pretend that the criticism of the mechanics and even the aesthetics within its Endwalker kit isn't warranted is a big problem. It only harms the job's ability to grow from here given how SE only seems to listen to launch feedback and bank it for later. And that isn't good for anyone. Personally, I never argued against people who wanted the Demi-Summon graphics. I did argue that Demi-Summons should have been the focus of this expansion's improvements instead of bloating the rotation like this because I wanted the gameplay to match the aesthetic of 'Big Honking Summon Attacks' like players have been complaining about. Specifically by having the player execute Akh Morn repeatedly the way the majority of the dragons do. That is a cool moment that encapsulates the aesthetic of Summoner both mechanically AND graphically. Phoenix was a decent attempt but I think it would need more work to distinguish it as we have less to draw on beyond "here's some utility". To me, that would have been a better use of development time. Actively satisfying the gameplay element that's been missing from the job by making the burst window actually feel like burst, while using the filler to cast your attention to the corrupted nature of the primals and turn that power against them. That's the aesthetic we've lost.

I get what you're saying but as someone who's mained Summoner from 2.2, I disagree. The rotation, as it were, that looks to be coming looks simpler yes, but it also looks less convoluted and more intuitive. It has never felt good, for example, to end Dreadwyrm Trance early because of raid buffs.

Though personally I never minded the DoT aspect of Summoner, it did feel like it was just there. While there were some interactions between that and the pet in the past, what with egi attacks triggering Ruin 4, which in turn reduced Enkindle's cooldown I don't remember those recieving a standing ovation or even an acknowledgement that this sort of synergy was desired. From a mechanical standpoint Summoner to me felt like it had fragments of multiple toolkits that didn't intrude on each other but at the same time rarely interacted with each other and while this newer iteration still has some of those issues they seem greatly diminished. And though you may disagree, this is a solution to Pet AI issues, with less to do there's less to get in the way of actions. If, when the expansion releases and there's responsiveness issues then I will quite happilly register my complaints, but from what I've seen I don't anticipate that.

I genuinely do not think it is a mechanical failure or an aesthetic one, though that might just be my happiness at being able to use Titan and feeling good about it. Part of the Summoner's lore in the quests has been about circulating the power of primals through our bodies and I think the alterations to our spells from the summons is a nice way of bringing that to the fore. While I might be misremembering, didn't summoning the Djinn in Golden Sun leave you weakend afterwards, that doesn't sound mechanically fulfilling.

In case you think I have no criticisms or greivances, I do. The Aetherflow mechanic still feels tacked on, Fester really needs a name and theme change and Ruin 4, I feel should be able to be used more than once a minute. But the Job having no more ability to grow is not one of them I believe, at least no more so than it would have been for how Summoner Currently is. Now don't get me wrong, rapid Akh Morn's sound amazing but I do believe that this iteration will capture the aesthetic not so much of the corruptive nature of primals, which our egi's have never been stated to have, but the aesthetic of the Trance method, which honestly feels discarded in Summoners current design, by giving it a place both before we get bahamut as well as with our Egi's and up by altering our spells. Personally I think it'll fit mechanically and Aesthetically.

[Grimoire-M]

I get what you're saying but as someone who's mained Summoner from 2.2, I disagree. The rotation, as it were, that looks to be coming looks simpler yes, but it also looks less convoluted and more intuitive. It has never felt good, for example, to end Dreadwyrm Trance early because of raid buffs.

Which is why I've also stated it would be better for Trance and Summon Bahamut to be merged. That isn't a complaint I have with the new summoner. I do think the context-sensitive buttons are a good thing. The degree to which they are used isn't good, however. I don't think we needed to keep Deathflare but now we lose damage for no reason at 80 because of how they did it. That does not fill me with confidence.

Though personally I never minded the DoT aspect of Summoner, it did feel like it was just there. While there were some interactions between that and the pet in the past, what with egi attacks triggering Ruin 4, which in turn reduced Enkindle's cooldown I don't remember those recieving a standing ovation or even an acknowledgement that this sort of synergy was desired.

I've been advocating for this for about four years on the forums, starting around early Stormblood. To me, the problem with DoTs and Aetherflow wasn't a lack of synergy (I did not mind FesterRuin despite people instantly roasting it with the same graphical complaints that got us to this iteration that frankly mean nothing to me), but that the synergy wasn't tied to the pet. If you had to spend a resource that only pet autos could give you access to, that made them use stronger abilities like the Egi Avatar animations we got, and the condition for those pet autos to grant that resource was "Primary target is afflicted with Bio/Miasma", that would have been sufficient, though I would like to have seen more in that vein. To me, I saw the same disconnected elements, and my response was, 'connect these in a way that satisfies the people who want better pet abilities'. That is, make the Egi Avatars the payoff for managing Aetherflow, the Demi Summons, and the Egi correctly. The new rotation just gives you them without any of the effort that reflects the build up Summoner rotation has been undergoing for the last 8 years.

From a mechanical standpoint Summoner to me felt like it had fragments of multiple toolkits that didn't intrude on each other but at the same time rarely interacted with each other and while this newer iteration still has some of those issues they seem greatly diminished. And though you may disagree, this is a solution to Pet AI issues, with less to do there's less to get in the way of actions. If, when the expansion releases and there's responsiveness issues then I will quite happilly register my complaints, but from what I've seen I don't anticipate that.

Removing pet interactions is not a solution to the Pet AI issues. It's an admission of failure and refusal to address them. I would actually find it less offensive if they just made them player abilities and called us Blue Mage. I've been advocating to change the mechanics of the AI to use charge-based auto attacks so that player input could be consistently prioritized without losing DPS as well as more recently asking for ranged only pets in order to solve the uptime and resummoning issues we've had since the Demi were introduced. We got those fixes at the cost of our core pet mechanic. And in spite of their efforts, the macro-like 1s timer used to track pet AI is still in place and I'm expecting to see ghosting get worse thanks to Devotion needing to be sandwiched between an Egi Avatar and a Demi Summon if we have more than 10s of downtime in any 1m sequence during a fight. Removing Egi Auto attacks does nothing to change that because of how the AI priority itself works. It likes to kick commands it can't shunt together 3s down the sequence which either means the Avatar forces us to burn an extra filler GCD or delay both behind Devotion to deal with it, nevermind if we aren't locked out thanks to Attunements. The fluidity Larry's video suggests is the same that was shown in the Shadowbringers media tour.

I genuinely do not think it is a mechanical failure or an aesthetic one, though that might just be my happiness at being able to use Titan and feeling good about it. Part of the Summoner's lore in the quests has been about circulating the power of primals through our bodies and I think the alterations to our spells from the summons is a nice way of bringing that to the fore. While I might be misremembering, didn't summoning the Djinn in Golden Sun leave you weakend afterwards, that doesn't sound mechanically fulfilling.

In case you think I have no criticisms or grievances, I do. The Aetherflow mechanic still feels tacked on, Fester really needs a name and theme change and Ruin 4, I feel should be able to be used more than once a minute. But the Job having no more ability to grow is not one of them I believe, at least no more so than it would have been for how Summoner Currently is. Now don't get me wrong, rapid Akh Morn's sound amazing but I do believe that this iteration will capture the aesthetic not so much of the corruptive nature of primals, which our egi's have never been stated to have, but the aesthetic of the Trance method, which honestly feels discarded in Summoners current design, by giving it a place both before we get bahamut as well as with our Egi's and up by altering our spells. Personally I think it'll fit mechanically and Aesthetically.

Here I'm willing to agree to disagree. The corrupted nature of the primals is the theme they represent in XIV. Ignoring that does a disservice to Summoner's theme as a whole. With that in mind, the problem with Aetherflow (which I've acknowledged since FesterRuin happened) has only been exacerbated by the removal of DoTs. If I had the choice I would have upgraded Energy Drain/Siphon into Fester/Painflare, then into Demi-related actions in Endwalker, while putting Ruin IV into the Bahamut section of the rotation, consolidating and defining the Trance burst window in the process. The DoTs I would have used to justify the Egi filler. And I probably would have opted for oGCD Summons if I had to keep the new rotational structure around just so that there was room to flex around downtime as well as to fit in DoTs. It's not like Endwalker Summoner has enough buttons to press so it wouldn't have caused much harm to keep them around.

[HyperSMB]

I know people may disagree with me, but I am actually quite glad for the change. I am not going to sit and judge what or what isn't a summoner as I have only played Tactics Advance I/II, VII/X/X-II/XII/XIII. Basically a neophyte. That said:

The current and all previous summoners did not feel good. They did not feel smooth. Their power fantasy was weak. They did not make me feel like a "summoner' or powerful. I flung piddly DoT's and then had weird conflicting rotations. It was unintuitive and kept me from playing it.

This new version appears to solve that. At a glance, it makes sense. This class appears to just be a flat improvement to the class identity.

[zcrash970]

snip

I said it once, I'll say it a million more times. When SE reworks a job, it's never good.

But I agree with you, new smn is mechanically flawed.

Why not remove energy drain and have your trances grant aetherflow stacks and ruin 4? Not to mention fester doesn't really fit in anymore. Painflare somewhat does

Why have ruin4 once a minute if it's not even that's strong? Mobility? We have plenty of it. Aoe? We DEFINITELY have plenty of that

Why all the instant casts? We have nothing to weave outside of titan. We don't need that much mobility

Making the CD for the demi phrases scale off spell speed are a horrid idea.

No interactions with your summons.

Having Searing Light center around you with a small range means we need to be on the boss when we pop it.

Carby is literally there to be cute.

Phoenix astral flow is nothing but flavor. It doesn't add anything.

The rotation is so stagnant. Let's face facts please. We are back to spamming one button with occasional presses of another.

So many buttons you hit once a minute.

We are essentially a physical range DPS with occasional casting now

New smn is flashy and beginner friendly but that's about it

[Layte_Aeon]

I said it once, I'll say it a million more times. When SE reworks a job, it's never good.

But I agree with you, new smn is mechanically flawed.

Why not remove energy drain and have your trances grant aetherflow stacks and ruin 4? Not to mention fester doesn't really fit in anymore. Painflare somewhat does

Why have ruin4 once a minute if it's not even that's strong? Mobility? We have plenty of it. Aoe? We DEFINITELY have plenty of that

Why all the instant casts? We have nothing to weave outside of titan. We don't need that much mobility

Making the CD for the demi phrases scale off spell speed are a horrid idea.

No interactions with your summons.

Having Searing Light center around you with a small range means we need to be on the boss when we pop it.

Carby is literally there to be cute.

Phoenix astral flow is nothing but flavor. It doesn't add anything.

The rotation is so stagnant. Let's face facts please. We are back to spamming one button with occasional presses of another.

So many buttons you hit once a minute.

We are essentially a physical range DPS with occasional casting now

New smn is flashy and beginner friendly but that's about it

Generally most jobs have bits of their kit separate to their main gauges: Bards’ Refulgent Arrow, Paladin’s Sword Oath and such don’t tie into their main mechanic, I’d say its nice that one sole mechanic doesn’t dominate a job.

I can agree on the ruin 4 point, though my thought is that its there to not bloat the gem summoning section.

Part of what looks to be summoners toolkit is that their mobility changes depending on what section of the rotation they’re at, as opposed to Black Mage and Red Mage’s rather consistent mobility.

I’m not sure what you mean by demi phase cooldowns. Do you mean the gem summons themselves? I’m not sure whats so horrid about that.

The summons do influence you while they’re out though, changing your spells qualities. I’d like the gem summons to stay out ideally but I can accept the difference in application.

Searing Light is still executed by Carbuncle and he can still be placed manually.

Nothing wrong with flavourful skills, Red Mage has vercure for instance.

The rotation is simple yes, but so what. The old system suffered more I think for just how bloated it was, this one at least looks to change in places.

I’ll take flashy and beginner friendly over unintuitive and bloated.

[MagiusNecros]

Carbuncle is back to being a pure support summon just like Carbuncle was in standard Final Fantasy titles.

I disagree with the spamming of one button. You have some nuance in what you can do with the rework. 5.0 SMN was more about setting up DoTs and mostly casting Ruin 3 and not much else.