White-mage is doomed - and why

[Shurrikhan]

whm iconic defensive spells : shell, protect, reflect actually were life saving spells even when he was not healing he actually tribute the party by casting his defensive buffs to help survive and even save from death his party.

Sure, but maintenance buffs are also typically really, really dull in multiplayer games.

Compare those against the more situational nature of, say, early Stoneskin.

however white mage in ff14 is basically a shell of an iconic job, made to only be mocked by the dev team really and its not just him its the entire healer role in general.

But the "iconic job", too, is largely a shell for basic throughputs and the most generic or (only types A-F versions of the same thing) among defensive utility...

Cure, Libra, Silence, Protect, Mini, Cura, Confuse, Blink, Esuna, Curaga, Reflect, Berserk, Arise (Rez), Holy (typically w/o stun or AoE), Dispel (enemy buff purge), Dia (DoT + defense down), Banish (generic damage, +50% to undead), Blind, Shell, Sneak, Invisible, Poisona (Antidote), Cursna, Reraise, Barsleep, Barsilence, Barpoison, Baraparalysis, Baraero, Barthundera, Barpetra, Barfira, Barwatera, Barblizzara, Barvira, Stone, Stonera, Haste, Hastra, Protectra, Shellra... 6 different teleports, several Recalls, Flash, Addle...

It's an eclectic mess.

I'm not saying they've done a good job with WHM in XIV -- they haven't -- but many the risk-taking involved in a late maintenance (de)buff refresh or the like is going to hit very differently in a real-time multiplayer game than in turn-based single-player, and WHM has never had much depth or identity once those fall out of the picture.

It's been a tentative, imaginable space only (one which, honestly, HW WHM probably captured, for its time, better than any other game's take on the job).

FFXIV must take creative license to make anything of that "iconic" base. They need to do a better job, obviously, but merely 'staying faithful' is not going to cut it.

[CrimsonGunner]

Sure, but maintenance buffs are also typically really, really dull in multiplayer games.

Compare those against the more situational nature of, say, early Stoneskin.


But the "iconic job", too, is largely a shell for basic throughputs and the most generic or (only types A-F versions of the same thing) among defensive utility...

Cure, Libra, Silence, Protect, Mini, Cura, Confuse, Blink, Esuna, Curaga, Reflect, Berserk, Arise (Rez), Holy (typically w/o stun or AoE), Dispel (enemy buff purge), Dia (DoT + defense down), Banish (generic damage, +50% to undead), Blind, Shell, Sneak, Invisible, Poisona (Antidote), Cursna, Reraise, Barsleep, Barsilence, Barpoison, Baraparalysis, Baraero, Barthundera, Barpetra, Barfira, Barwatera, Barblizzara, Barvira, Stone, Stonera, Haste, Hastra, Protectra, Shellra... 6 different teleports, several Recalls, Flash, Addle...

It's an eclectic mess.

I'm not saying they've done a good job with WHM in XIV -- they haven't -- but many the risk-taking involved in a late maintenance (de)buff refresh or the like is going to hit very differently in a real-time multiplayer game than in turn-based single-player, and WHM has never had much depth or identity once those fall out of the picture.

It's been a tentative, imaginable space only (one which, honestly, HW WHM probably captured, for its time, better than any other game's take on the job).

FFXIV must take creative license to make anything of that "iconic" base. They need to do a better job, obviously, but merely 'staying faithful' is not going to cut it.

again try and read what i wrote, as i said those spells in ff games were used much more and were actually needed and even though you consider them a shell for basic throughputs and the most generic, it does not change the fact that they were and are buffs that actually helped in those games.
like it or not they are a classic whm which despite being basic, was a strong staple in a group at any ff game.

and yes maintaining buffs or even debuffs might not be interesting to you but again it doesn't mean it wont be fun for another and also we have 3 healer that suppose to cater to different playstyles so giving whm creative space could bring something new while still honoring the classic, not necessary maintaining those spells as they are but maybe give them additional interaction or maybe have them work slightly differently then the original versions.
either way we both agree they need to do a better job and yes staying faitful is not going to cut it ,they need to think stuff through but as i said if they actually wanted to ,they could create a whm that is good and fit ff14 while still honoring his other iterations in a way.

problem is they don't care T_T

[ForteNightshade]

And Lillybell is an amazing spell, I do not understand at all the gripe against it. As an SCH main I would have loved to have that spell. Preemptive planning before unavoidable dmg, before raid aoe, or before specific mechanics makes it THE best AOE heal in the game by far. Trivializing the need for other spells to be used for you or your healing partner makes it a huge tool for someone who knows when to use it raising the sealing for the potential of WHM. Thin Air nerf certainly impacts the playstyle of WHM if compared today, but it does by no means make it so White Mages are doomed. Until we see the Raids, we have no way of telling. And in lower difficulties then that WHM shines so no problem there. So this thread is premature. Until we see how the Stat Squish impacts healers as a whole in content, until we see to what level of actual healing do we need to do to keep everyone alive is required, talking about DPS as the main focus is foolish. We optimize our DPS uptime based on predicted incoming damage. Let's see THAT before we can raise legit complaints about the viability of a healer in content.

I was going to use the current raid tier to highlight why Lilybell, while a decent ability, is nowhere near as hype as you're making it out to be. How fortunate for my example, Cloud of Darkness literally shows why.

The most practical use would be during Empty Plane at the 4:24 mark as Deluge immediately follows. Except Deluge is at 4:39, exactly fifteen seconds later. Therefore, Lilybell is rendered entirely worthless save for a single heal as its present duration will expire just before the actual hit. What if we use it at the beginning? You'll again run into the same issue, where Lilybell is held back by its short duration. Furthermore, it'll conflict with your co-healer's toolkit. Earthly Star, for example, handles the open set of mechanics, and will always be prioritized due to its damage component much in the same way Assize is. Granted, we may no longer see a WHM/AST pair but Sage handles it easily with Pneuma, Panhaima, Holos, Drouychloe or Ixochole, all of which are essentially free since enough time passes between damage for Sage to regain Addergall.

Throughout the entirety of Cloud, there is not a single point where Lilybell doesn't result in a massive overheal or simply isn't practical because the WHM won't be taking damage. For a 180s cooldown, that isn't exactly hype even if Lilybell has some worthwhile use. It's simply thoroughly outclassed by Macrocosmos, and even falls short of Pneuma and Protraction to some extent.

Lilybell isn't bad per se; it'll certainly find its niche. Not to mention, a free Medica is still free healing. What makes it underwhelm is the WHM having to take damage and it's duration both in CD length and how long it lasts. One could argue making the heal slightly less potent but removing all the aforementioned restrictions would make it significantly more worthwhile. As it stands, it'll mostly slot in as our Cure III replacement due to Thin Air's nerf.

[Shurrikhan]

and yes maintaining buffs or even debuffs might not be interesting to you but again it doesn't mean it wont be fun for another and also we have 3 healer that suppose to cater to different playstyles

I'm not opposed to buffs on WHM just for their being buffs.

But neither is 'had buffs' whenever virtually every backline supporting caster 'had buffs' a decent basis for identity.

"Honoring the classic" merely gave us an additional GCD cost after rez in which to put up Protect. Sure, we could reduce Protect's duration so that isn't so 'cast once and forget about it until the target's death', but would that be any more... fun? At best, it'd give us some faint thing to do during downtime... while taking up valuable button space for a modest to-be-maintained defense bump.

Alternatively, if the "Protect" or "Shell" or "Reflect" that you wish to have honored are not meant to function as they did before, why call them that? And what becomes the issue with the likes of Stoneskin or Benison or any other means of protecting against, shelling against, or potentially even reflecting some more immediate and timely amount of damage? (Though, let's be clear: if anyone deserves a reflect, it would probably be SCH or, at a pinch, SGE, not WHM.)

they could create a whm that is good and fit ff14 while still honoring his other iterations in a way.

You do see how vague (to the point of meaningless) this is, yes?

What specifically is it from WHM's other iterations that you think WHM should uniquely lay claim to (in exclusive possession or in advantaged iteration), as opposed to SCH, SGE, or AST? Most of what exists in its previous iterations are not going to be "good and fit" in FFXIV, and merely 'having buffs' is not going to suddenly generate further WHM identity unless it goes some different way with them (which prior iterations can only differentiate as far longer duration and/or "less interesting than on SCH/AST/SGE").

[CrimsonGunner]

its clearly your not trying to even read a sherd of what i wrote but even so i will indulge you and answer your questions.

I'm not opposed to buffs on WHM just for their being buffs.

But neither is 'had buffs' whenever virtually every backline supporting caster 'had buffs' a decent basis for identity.

a decent basic for identity is not up to just you to decide ,there are support who sole basis for identity was giving different buffs to teammates and a gamestyle can be based on it. the solid example is bard classes from different games that focus on songs that gives different buffs to their members, if you prefer a simple style like theme you can take sona from league of legends or look at how bard mains wished to have their songs actually give buffs as they used to in the past and have a gameplay style based on their own songs. an decent basis for identity can be "have buffs" just cause you don't see it or find it fun ,does not mean it cant be and again you have multiple healers don't like it move to the next one.

"Honoring the classic" merely have us an additional GCD cost after rez in which to put up Protect. Sure, we could reduce Protect's duration so that isn't so 'cast once and forget about it until the target's death', but would that be any more... fun? At best, it'd give us some faint thing to do during downtime... while taking up valuable button space for a modest to-be-maintained defense bump.

one, it would be better then just spamming glare glare glare all the time and be meaningful to keep not only people alive but actually reduce the damage taken which means less healing needed from you = more time to support and dps making it much more meaningful.

yes it will be more fun if you care about actually reducing damage and maintaining your defense buffs which gives you more stuff to do.

two, we already have that in bozja and eureka that you need to reapply buffs if you die, you can choose not to but its exist there.

Alternatively, if the "Protect" or "Shell" or "Reflect" that you wish to have honored are not meant to function as they did before, why call them that? And what becomes the issue with the likes of Stoneskin or Benison or any other means of protecting against, shelling against, or potentially even reflecting some more immediate and timely amount of damage? (Though, let's be clear: if anyone deserves a reflect, it would probably be SCH or, at a pinch, SGE, not WHM.)

you can still have the same spell or effect either of them can apply or their core effect be used while still remaining true.
for example reflect can be used to also reflect healing effect to allies,
have protect as a trait for a defensive spell or maybe a trait for a healing spell or have a condition where it triggers and its an aura around you. you have different possibilites to make protect work in such a way that it stay true to its spell original purpose only executed differently.
as for why not just call them diffferent names, the answer is simple if you call them something different ,they are different.
you see the rename is a bluff cause the effect identical but none the less it does not change the fact that in the end it still a different skill/spell that is not related (look at protective barrier and aqua veil)

and no sge/sch don't necessary deserve to have reflect.

What specifically is it from WHM's other iterations that you think WHM should uniquely lay claim to (in exclusive possession or in advantaged iteration), as opposed to SCH, SGE, or AST? Most of what exists in its previous iterations are not going to be "good and fit" in FFXIV, and merely 'having buffs' is not going to suddenly generate further WHM identity unless it goes some different way with them (which prior iterations can only differentiate as far longer duration and/or "less interesting than on SCH/AST/SGE").

if it were a perfect world i would want him to have his defensive aspect more but if you want to claim something from past spells and iterations without ground breaking meta powerhouse and without me claiming to his buffs/debuffs since you dont want that then bout raises. past iterations could revive multiple people, could raise to full and even give a buff that auto raise and cause whm is considered the progging healer job, you can have him handle raising people better and faster like red mage does and keep all the other the same, have him raise them even to half/full hp cause if casting a defensive buff after death is wasteful surely casting a healing gcd/ogcd might be worth saving.

again you just need to think and you can find good stuff, just cause you dont like buffing people don't mean everyone like that.

[CrimsonGunner]

again its just my thoughts on whm, you have your own but and again i can find value in certain stuff that you cannot and vise versa.

lets agree that whm simply deserve to be treated better and while we can agree to disagree about aspects of whm should or should not be in his identity ,the bottom line is we both like whm and want it to have better stuff then what EW will bring to him right now.

[Shurrikhan]

one, it would be better then just spamming glare glare glare all the time and be meaningful to keep not only people alive but actually reduce the damage taken which means less healing needed from you = more time to support and dps making it much more meaningful.

Let's not forget that the "it" there is merely having to reapply basic M. Defense, Phys. Defense, status-effect-specific immunity buffs, or element-specific resistance buffs. And if we're already so reluctant to spend a GCD on Lily casts that ultimately recoup three-quarters of their would-be offensive value, how fond do you really think WHMs are going to be of having to recast Protect once per 30 seconds, etc.?

It's not like the devs are going to allow a permanently maintainable buff to be powerful enough to be significant; at best, like Regen, it will merely save you a bit more than a GCD of healing per its duration, making it a slightly more efficient use of that GCD (but likely without Regen's instant-cast mobility or its ability to see significant use for apart from whichever will be MTing over Protect's duration).

you can still have the same spell or effect either of them can apply or their core effect be used while still remaining true.

...What is this supposed to mean? The spell, for all intents and purposes, is its effect. We, as a community, wouldn't call it Protect, still, if its effect was instead to provide a flat HP barrier. The devs could steal the name and even put it on an offensive weaponskill, theoretically, but it wouldn't be what the community knows as Protect.

have protect as a trait for a defensive spell or maybe a trait for a healing spell or have a condition where it triggers and its an aura around you. you have different possibilites to make protect work in such a way that it stay true to its spell original purpose only executed differently.

This sounds more feasible and interesting. Creating a Defense Up aura around yourself or your heal target would likely be a less broadly applicable (but also more interesting) version of WHM's old tendency to just having outright additional healing potency compared to other healers. That no longer sounds like Protect so much as Galvanize or Fluid Aura, but I can appreciate the theme.

as for why not just call them diffferent names, the answer is simple if you call them something different ,they are different.

...No. They're different when they work differently. The only thing different about Raise and Resurrection, for instance, aren't the skills themselves, but merely that Thin Air exists in the same kit as WHM-Raise and greater MP gen per minute exists in the one with SCH-Raise.

[AFuzzyMu11in]

thin air will hopefully get fixed

[FoxCh40s]

thin air will hopefully get fixed

Very unlikely

[Semirhage]

Very unlikely

"We believe that healers should get their thrill of job satisfaction from melding 3000 piety onto their gear"