White-mage is doomed - and why

[CrimsonGunner]

For being the healiest healer whm really doesn't want to heal the majority of the time and they're worse at it then ast which is funny. Whm has got to be the worst design job in the game. No identity, nothing they excel at except maybe stack healing, no movement tool, nothing in it's healing kit is actually unique, it's DPS abilities are just washed out balls of light, and no gameplay loop of any kind. It's sad to see one of the most iconic jobs in final fantasy not have anything from it's past games that made them unique or anything in FFXIV that is unique.

exactly ,like every final fantasy game had the healer jobs be a must in parties with a variety of spells and skills.
whm iconic defensive spells : shell, protect, reflect actually were life saving spells even when he was not healing he actually tribute the party by casting his defensive buffs to help survive and even save from death his party.
he had over abundant selection of healing spells such as auto-life, cure, cura, curaga, esuna, dispel, regen and only near the end of the game at the higher level would he unlock one of the most destructive spells in existence : "holy" but until that even without said spell white mage was actually a vital member in a party and that is only 1 of the healers examples.

however white mage in ff14 is basically a shell of an iconic job, made to only be mocked by the dev team really and its not just him its the entire healer role in general.
you have an amazing lore for each healer and you expect the job would have a kit to reflect said lore and show its major theme while paying tribute to the franchise but how can you think those healer kits are actually expressing said stuff and keep the talk about "healers are fine, healers are ok" when they are clearly not and to make matters worse only keep getting worse and worse from negligence from the devs.

nothing in the spells in EW actually has a solid thought given to them that say: "hmmm, i can see the job casting that spell". examine each spell individually and you will see that they are basically been thrown, just to say "here ,you exist so we gave u scrap ,enjoy" and the devs actually expect us to buy that pathetic excuse.
sorry but i don't buy it and if they actually played one of the healers job they would actually know how transparent their lack of caring is shown by actually saying those are your changes.

[Shurrikhan]

whm iconic defensive spells : shell, protect, reflect actually were life saving spells even when he was not healing he actually tribute the party by casting his defensive buffs to help survive and even save from death his party.

Sure, but maintenance buffs are also typically really, really dull in multiplayer games.

Compare those against the more situational nature of, say, early Stoneskin.

however white mage in ff14 is basically a shell of an iconic job, made to only be mocked by the dev team really and its not just him its the entire healer role in general.

But the "iconic job", too, is largely a shell for basic throughputs and the most generic or (only types A-F versions of the same thing) among defensive utility...

Cure, Libra, Silence, Protect, Mini, Cura, Confuse, Blink, Esuna, Curaga, Reflect, Berserk, Arise (Rez), Holy (typically w/o stun or AoE), Dispel (enemy buff purge), Dia (DoT + defense down), Banish (generic damage, +50% to undead), Blind, Shell, Sneak, Invisible, Poisona (Antidote), Cursna, Reraise, Barsleep, Barsilence, Barpoison, Baraparalysis, Baraero, Barthundera, Barpetra, Barfira, Barwatera, Barblizzara, Barvira, Stone, Stonera, Haste, Hastra, Protectra, Shellra... 6 different teleports, several Recalls, Flash, Addle...

It's an eclectic mess.

I'm not saying they've done a good job with WHM in XIV -- they haven't -- but many the risk-taking involved in a late maintenance (de)buff refresh or the like is going to hit very differently in a real-time multiplayer game than in turn-based single-player, and WHM has never had much depth or identity once those fall out of the picture.

It's been a tentative, imaginable space only (one which, honestly, HW WHM probably captured, for its time, better than any other game's take on the job).

FFXIV must take creative license to make anything of that "iconic" base. They need to do a better job, obviously, but merely 'staying faithful' is not going to cut it.

[CrimsonGunner]

Sure, but maintenance buffs are also typically really, really dull in multiplayer games.

Compare those against the more situational nature of, say, early Stoneskin.


But the "iconic job", too, is largely a shell for basic throughputs and the most generic or (only types A-F versions of the same thing) among defensive utility...

Cure, Libra, Silence, Protect, Mini, Cura, Confuse, Blink, Esuna, Curaga, Reflect, Berserk, Arise (Rez), Holy (typically w/o stun or AoE), Dispel (enemy buff purge), Dia (DoT + defense down), Banish (generic damage, +50% to undead), Blind, Shell, Sneak, Invisible, Poisona (Antidote), Cursna, Reraise, Barsleep, Barsilence, Barpoison, Baraparalysis, Baraero, Barthundera, Barpetra, Barfira, Barwatera, Barblizzara, Barvira, Stone, Stonera, Haste, Hastra, Protectra, Shellra... 6 different teleports, several Recalls, Flash, Addle...

It's an eclectic mess.

I'm not saying they've done a good job with WHM in XIV -- they haven't -- but many the risk-taking involved in a late maintenance (de)buff refresh or the like is going to hit very differently in a real-time multiplayer game than in turn-based single-player, and WHM has never had much depth or identity once those fall out of the picture.

It's been a tentative, imaginable space only (one which, honestly, HW WHM probably captured, for its time, better than any other game's take on the job).

FFXIV must take creative license to make anything of that "iconic" base. They need to do a better job, obviously, but merely 'staying faithful' is not going to cut it.

again try and read what i wrote, as i said those spells in ff games were used much more and were actually needed and even though you consider them a shell for basic throughputs and the most generic, it does not change the fact that they were and are buffs that actually helped in those games.
like it or not they are a classic whm which despite being basic, was a strong staple in a group at any ff game.

and yes maintaining buffs or even debuffs might not be interesting to you but again it doesn't mean it wont be fun for another and also we have 3 healer that suppose to cater to different playstyles so giving whm creative space could bring something new while still honoring the classic, not necessary maintaining those spells as they are but maybe give them additional interaction or maybe have them work slightly differently then the original versions.
either way we both agree they need to do a better job and yes staying faitful is not going to cut it ,they need to think stuff through but as i said if they actually wanted to ,they could create a whm that is good and fit ff14 while still honoring his other iterations in a way.

problem is they don't care T_T

[Shurrikhan]

and yes maintaining buffs or even debuffs might not be interesting to you but again it doesn't mean it wont be fun for another and also we have 3 healer that suppose to cater to different playstyles

I'm not opposed to buffs on WHM just for their being buffs.

But neither is 'had buffs' whenever virtually every backline supporting caster 'had buffs' a decent basis for identity.

"Honoring the classic" merely gave us an additional GCD cost after rez in which to put up Protect. Sure, we could reduce Protect's duration so that isn't so 'cast once and forget about it until the target's death', but would that be any more... fun? At best, it'd give us some faint thing to do during downtime... while taking up valuable button space for a modest to-be-maintained defense bump.

Alternatively, if the "Protect" or "Shell" or "Reflect" that you wish to have honored are not meant to function as they did before, why call them that? And what becomes the issue with the likes of Stoneskin or Benison or any other means of protecting against, shelling against, or potentially even reflecting some more immediate and timely amount of damage? (Though, let's be clear: if anyone deserves a reflect, it would probably be SCH or, at a pinch, SGE, not WHM.)

they could create a whm that is good and fit ff14 while still honoring his other iterations in a way.

You do see how vague (to the point of meaningless) this is, yes?

What specifically is it from WHM's other iterations that you think WHM should uniquely lay claim to (in exclusive possession or in advantaged iteration), as opposed to SCH, SGE, or AST? Most of what exists in its previous iterations are not going to be "good and fit" in FFXIV, and merely 'having buffs' is not going to suddenly generate further WHM identity unless it goes some different way with them (which prior iterations can only differentiate as far longer duration and/or "less interesting than on SCH/AST/SGE").

[CrimsonGunner]

its clearly your not trying to even read a sherd of what i wrote but even so i will indulge you and answer your questions.

I'm not opposed to buffs on WHM just for their being buffs.

But neither is 'had buffs' whenever virtually every backline supporting caster 'had buffs' a decent basis for identity.

a decent basic for identity is not up to just you to decide ,there are support who sole basis for identity was giving different buffs to teammates and a gamestyle can be based on it. the solid example is bard classes from different games that focus on songs that gives different buffs to their members, if you prefer a simple style like theme you can take sona from league of legends or look at how bard mains wished to have their songs actually give buffs as they used to in the past and have a gameplay style based on their own songs. an decent basis for identity can be "have buffs" just cause you don't see it or find it fun ,does not mean it cant be and again you have multiple healers don't like it move to the next one.

"Honoring the classic" merely have us an additional GCD cost after rez in which to put up Protect. Sure, we could reduce Protect's duration so that isn't so 'cast once and forget about it until the target's death', but would that be any more... fun? At best, it'd give us some faint thing to do during downtime... while taking up valuable button space for a modest to-be-maintained defense bump.

one, it would be better then just spamming glare glare glare all the time and be meaningful to keep not only people alive but actually reduce the damage taken which means less healing needed from you = more time to support and dps making it much more meaningful.

yes it will be more fun if you care about actually reducing damage and maintaining your defense buffs which gives you more stuff to do.

two, we already have that in bozja and eureka that you need to reapply buffs if you die, you can choose not to but its exist there.

Alternatively, if the "Protect" or "Shell" or "Reflect" that you wish to have honored are not meant to function as they did before, why call them that? And what becomes the issue with the likes of Stoneskin or Benison or any other means of protecting against, shelling against, or potentially even reflecting some more immediate and timely amount of damage? (Though, let's be clear: if anyone deserves a reflect, it would probably be SCH or, at a pinch, SGE, not WHM.)

you can still have the same spell or effect either of them can apply or their core effect be used while still remaining true.
for example reflect can be used to also reflect healing effect to allies,
have protect as a trait for a defensive spell or maybe a trait for a healing spell or have a condition where it triggers and its an aura around you. you have different possibilites to make protect work in such a way that it stay true to its spell original purpose only executed differently.
as for why not just call them diffferent names, the answer is simple if you call them something different ,they are different.
you see the rename is a bluff cause the effect identical but none the less it does not change the fact that in the end it still a different skill/spell that is not related (look at protective barrier and aqua veil)

and no sge/sch don't necessary deserve to have reflect.

What specifically is it from WHM's other iterations that you think WHM should uniquely lay claim to (in exclusive possession or in advantaged iteration), as opposed to SCH, SGE, or AST? Most of what exists in its previous iterations are not going to be "good and fit" in FFXIV, and merely 'having buffs' is not going to suddenly generate further WHM identity unless it goes some different way with them (which prior iterations can only differentiate as far longer duration and/or "less interesting than on SCH/AST/SGE").

if it were a perfect world i would want him to have his defensive aspect more but if you want to claim something from past spells and iterations without ground breaking meta powerhouse and without me claiming to his buffs/debuffs since you dont want that then bout raises. past iterations could revive multiple people, could raise to full and even give a buff that auto raise and cause whm is considered the progging healer job, you can have him handle raising people better and faster like red mage does and keep all the other the same, have him raise them even to half/full hp cause if casting a defensive buff after death is wasteful surely casting a healing gcd/ogcd might be worth saving.

again you just need to think and you can find good stuff, just cause you dont like buffing people don't mean everyone like that.

[CrimsonGunner]

again its just my thoughts on whm, you have your own but and again i can find value in certain stuff that you cannot and vise versa.

lets agree that whm simply deserve to be treated better and while we can agree to disagree about aspects of whm should or should not be in his identity ,the bottom line is we both like whm and want it to have better stuff then what EW will bring to him right now.

[Shurrikhan]

one, it would be better then just spamming glare glare glare all the time and be meaningful to keep not only people alive but actually reduce the damage taken which means less healing needed from you = more time to support and dps making it much more meaningful.

Let's not forget that the "it" there is merely having to reapply basic M. Defense, Phys. Defense, status-effect-specific immunity buffs, or element-specific resistance buffs. And if we're already so reluctant to spend a GCD on Lily casts that ultimately recoup three-quarters of their would-be offensive value, how fond do you really think WHMs are going to be of having to recast Protect once per 30 seconds, etc.?

It's not like the devs are going to allow a permanently maintainable buff to be powerful enough to be significant; at best, like Regen, it will merely save you a bit more than a GCD of healing per its duration, making it a slightly more efficient use of that GCD (but likely without Regen's instant-cast mobility or its ability to see significant use for apart from whichever will be MTing over Protect's duration).

you can still have the same spell or effect either of them can apply or their core effect be used while still remaining true.

...What is this supposed to mean? The spell, for all intents and purposes, is its effect. We, as a community, wouldn't call it Protect, still, if its effect was instead to provide a flat HP barrier. The devs could steal the name and even put it on an offensive weaponskill, theoretically, but it wouldn't be what the community knows as Protect.

have protect as a trait for a defensive spell or maybe a trait for a healing spell or have a condition where it triggers and its an aura around you. you have different possibilites to make protect work in such a way that it stay true to its spell original purpose only executed differently.

This sounds more feasible and interesting. Creating a Defense Up aura around yourself or your heal target would likely be a less broadly applicable (but also more interesting) version of WHM's old tendency to just having outright additional healing potency compared to other healers. That no longer sounds like Protect so much as Galvanize or Fluid Aura, but I can appreciate the theme.

as for why not just call them diffferent names, the answer is simple if you call them something different ,they are different.

...No. They're different when they work differently. The only thing different about Raise and Resurrection, for instance, aren't the skills themselves, but merely that Thin Air exists in the same kit as WHM-Raise and greater MP gen per minute exists in the one with SCH-Raise.

[Icecylee]

Let's not forget that the "it" there is merely having to reapply basic M. Defense, Phys. Defense, status-effect-specific immunity buffs, or element-specific resistance buffs. And if we're already so reluctant to spend a GCD on Lily casts that ultimately recoup three-quarters of their would-be offensive value, how fond do you really think WHMs are going to be of having to recast Protect once per 30 seconds, etc.?

It's not like the devs are going to allow a permanently maintainable buff to be powerful enough to be significant; at best, like Regen, it will merely save you a bit more than a GCD of healing per its duration, making it a slightly more efficient use of that GCD (but likely without Regen's instant-cast mobility or its ability to see significant use for apart from whichever will be MTing over Protect's duration).

I feel like there's a couple ways that even within the context of 14 they could play around with getting stuff to sort of feel like the classical buffs while still making sense here, they'd just need to get creative and maybe have the effects be slightly overkill to compensate for eating GCDs, such that they'd make up for potential GCD attack/heals lost. An idea just came to me that might do stupid stuff in the context of savage, but could be fun to mess around with in normal dungeons/trials and at least illustrates the point.

So something like protect would be a single target GCD ability with a cooldown, probably in the minute range. Acts as a channeled ability that gives 40~50% damage reduction while it's active, with the MP cost to keep channeling it ramping up the longer it goes on. After the channeled effect ends, it'd give the target a Shell status that would grant a smaller 5~10% DR effect, with the duration of that scaling higher the longer you channeled the protect effect.

Reflect could work in a similar way too, I think. You'd probably knock down the DR granted to something more reasonable like 20~30, and rather than an after effect, whenever you ended the channel it'd do damage to any enemy that hit the target while it was active, either based on the amount of damage dealt, or the number or hits or the length of the reflect or w/e would be make the most sense or be easier to balance around.

Even re-raise wouldn't be too hard to do, I don't think, with a bit of inventiveness. Make it an instant cast spell you can only cast in combat, grants re-raise to the target. Whenever that target dies, it'd immediately refund the WHM enough MP to cast raise, and grant a short duration status that makes their next raise instant cast. I don't know how useful something like that might actually be but like... there's definitely *some* merit, especially with something like whitemage that's been a series staple since the very first game, in considering how they could potentially reconfigure classic abilities into something that could make sense for 14, especially if they're going to keep moving away from the lore's more shamanistic aspects and refuse to commit harder to making the lily system more interesting.

[Deceptus]

Let's not forget that the "it" there is merely having to reapply basic M. Defense, Phys. Defense, status-effect-specific immunity buffs, or element-specific resistance buffs. And if we're already so reluctant to spend a GCD on Lily casts that ultimately recoup three-quarters of their would-be offensive value, how fond do you really think WHMs are going to be of having to recast Protect once per 30 seconds, etc.?

If the Devs really wanted Protect to have a place in this game it would be extremely easy to do.

Protect: Short duration, Short CD Physical Damage Taken Reduction Buff to all party members (or 1 person), similar to Reprisal or Feint but on Party members

Shell: Short duration, Short CD Magic Damage Taken Reduction Buff to all party members (or 1 person), similar to Addle but on Party members

Make them role actions so every healer has access to them.