Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

[lezard21]

"I think [Lakshmi] will go more smoothly if we do [Vril], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?" - it is not a violation to suggest one's own opinion/policy or to present a counterproposal to an opinion,

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

[ICountFrom0]

I refuse to believe it'll actually be taken that seriously and if I do get in trouble, is the day I quit.

Tis quite literally the rules as written, so it's not only meant to be taken seriously, your meant to report anybody who does it.

[Xirean]

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

Difference of play-style is a valid reason for a kick.

[Vahlnir]

Then one person replies "No, I'm not ok with that" and you can't force him to do it your way nor can you kick him cause ban

But if they are holding back the group's progress to the point that they literally cannot progress any further then they can be kicked. Compelling a playstyle works both ways. Sure, you can't force someone to do something they don't want to, but they can't force others to tolerate it either. That's where the difference in playstyles comes into play where there is irreconcilable differences. Just because some people don't believe in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It has for years. lol

[Roda]

TL;DR: Just word it in the right way and you still get your point across.. You don't need to get your point across by being condescending, or by subsequently negating their style of play by trying to impose your own onto them.

The problem is, if something like that is going wrong, you don't really have the time to type it out as you're reacting to the chaos.

"tank can you please turn on tank stance so I don't get autoed" gets you autoed to death before they finish reading it.
"please stack with me we need to share the damage to survive" and the castbar finishes as you hit enter.

usually there's time for "TANK STANCE!" or "STACK!" and no one should be offended by basic mechanic callouts

Saying "I don't need need to save tank lb3 for Alexander/omega/ultima/SoS" isn't an opinion, it's just flat-out wrong. This game has binary conditions for a LOT of its mechanics and clear conditions, and we don't need to give the false illusion that there's other options for these things.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Well if you are concered, quietly disband after some attempts to hint solutions. Block the problem player and restart your pf, they cannot see or join it. Problem solved. Petition SE to expand the nr of players you can block!
I personally would try something along the lines of, "I suggest we do x and y to not wipe to this mechanic again" not even mention whom in particular fucked it up just reiterate what you SUGGEST is done, even though all the rest of us know that is how it SHOULD be done

We shall see how it goes in future, I dont mind some deadweights in extreme's but even then they can be hard to carry. Recently carried a random through e11s, they were my cohealer who somehow both refused to heal and also didnt dps, was fun for me to try solohealing the majority of that fight. I was baffled they would fail at both, it took a few 2% and a 0.2% wipe for me to pay more attention to see the problem. Ended up taking some of the dps potting and having food to make up for them.

I honestly question such people who think it is ok to go into a party with 7 other people and perform like that, esp one's who absolutely will not take advice at all. You willfully waste their time with the refusal to press a couple buttons. And if you are not capable of performing, that's fine! Savage is probably not for you, at least not pf pugs anyway. Why is it ok to waste people's time like that and then try and get them banned when they leave or try and correct your poor play?! I will only ever do savage with my static if these new ToS prove to be enforced willy nilly without care that people are often trying to HELP the underperforming person and the rest of the party having their time wasted. Nothing wrong to be a slow learner, but the rest of the raiding community is not obligated to carry them and should not be punished for leaving or trying to offer advice on how to clear content.

I sat on the dummy for hours to memorise my opener on MNK in early ShB. I was on the dummy for more hours memorising the positionals when I was new to the job. I wanted to at least be sure that my gameplay of my job would not be the cause of failing to clear. It's downright rude to join a pf saying practice "x mechanic" and you are just going in blind expecting people to carry you and teach you mechanics they are NOT looking to be stuck progging on.

[rewd]

Difference of play-style is a valid reason for a kick.

If player B is not asking for any advice, player A cannot force player B to play a specific way.

You guys really need to read the ToS.

[TaleraRistain]

While MPK may be a known troll, their point in this instance isn't inaccurate. How is answering "They DRG keeps messing up Lions" impolite or banworthy when it's literally addressing the problem? All this encourages is even more quiet disbands because no one will want to actually say why we're wiping.

What's constructive about just finger pointing? Does this statement try to do anything to determine exactly why the DRG is having trouble? Does it offer any suggestions on what can be adjusted?

As others in the thread have said, you can still give feedback to people. But phrasing and presentation matter. As someone mentioned, any HR training or training for a leadership positions requires this care and professionalism. If you want to be a leader and guide your party to success, then it's an essential skill to pick up.

[Xirean]

You guys really need to read the ToS.

Kicking someone is not forcing a play style on them. It's getting away from them. Also an example that I talked out with support. This was from another thread but I think it's relevant to this conversation.

[lezard21]

As someone mentioned, any HR training or training for a leadership positions requires this care and professionalism. If you want to be a leader and guide your party to success, then it's an essential skill to pick up.

"LFM->TEA BJCC prog. Must have a HR degree and 2+ years of experience in a verifiable HR position"