The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Cleretic]

Re:Tempering

It might also be a problem if the source of a lot of our power (eg the Echo) was this tempering. To untemper the WoL would free us, but at what cost? Would we no longer be Superman? Can the world/Scions afford that loss?

If this is a case of tempering, I see it more of a Bioshock “Could you kindly” kind of reveal.. because up until now the WoL has not actual had any free will at all regarding the events of the main story with exception of what… the job you play and free company you join?

Every choice we have made has had no impact on the story at large..and while out of game that’s just because it’s an mmo and easier to write, it could easily become a plot twist where the WoL could not refuse requests for help.

The Echo is also not the same as the Blessing of Light is not the same as tempering. We know exactly what the Echo is now, remember--it's the faint remnant (the 'echo', if you will) of an Ancient soul's capabilities, and any perceived connection to Hydaelyn was confirmed to just be Echo-havers mistaking correlation for causation because of hearing Hydaelyn's words immediately on awakening. Us losing the Blessing of Light (which as you may recall, we did, and then still fought a primal or two before starting to regain it) does nothing to the Echo, but us losing the Echo (if such a thing is even possible) would be a problem.

But, I will point out for people really hankering for a 'tempered by Hydaelyn' story for some reason: We know that the Echo doesn't grant immunity to tempering, at any strength, just resistance. Remember that even the Unsundered were on some level tempered by Zodiark. So while all the evidence is saying that we are not currently tempered by Hydaelyn... all of the evidence also says that there's nothing stopping us from getting tempered by Hydaelyn. Even by mistake; remember that Ramuh didn't want to temper by proximity, and still did. If we're going into some level of physical proximity to The Big Girl, then suddenly the notion of us getting tempered is all too concerningly present.

...although even then, I would say that the more narratively pressing possibility on that subject is Zodiark doing it. We have no evidence that we'll be punching out Hydaelyn, but we know he's in the story's crosshairs.

[KizuyaKatogami]

...although even then, I would say that the more narratively pressing possibility on that subject is Zodiark doing it. We have no evidence that we'll be punching out Hydaelyn, but we know he's in the story's crosshairs.

Pretty sure they’re both in the crosshairs lmao. They’ve been heavily empathizing the end of primals being near, they’re both primals. We know Zodiark can temper, there’s no reason why Hydaelyn wouldn’t be able to as well and there’s already hints of both minfilia and ardbert being tempered. Both primals will most likely be kicking the bucket in EW, much to some peoples distaste i’m sure but in the end she is just a primal. Doesn’t make much sense of Zodiark to have been able to temper us tbh seeing as he’s been dormant for so long and i don’t see them doing some last minute tempering…

[Cleretic]

there’s already hints of both minfilia and ardbert being tempered.

...can you provide those hints? Because I am not aware of those 'hints', and this is the sort of thing I end up knowing about.

[RyuDragnier]

If the WoL is tempered, it's likely on the lines of very light tempering. Enough to shield us, but nothing more. Assuming Hydaelyn and Venat were fully aware of who our soul belonged to from the beginning, they wouldn't need to do any kind of heavy tempering, as we'd be driven to help people as we did in the past simply from being us.

[MikkoAkure]

If the WoL is tempered, it's likely on the lines of very light tempering. Enough to shield us, but nothing more. Assuming Hydaelyn and Venat were fully aware of who our soul belonged to from the beginning, they wouldn't need to do any kind of heavy tempering, as we'd be driven to help people as we did in the past simply from being us.

I don't think we are tempered, based on Hydalelyn's lyrics in Answers promoting free will. As well as that, Ifrit himself says we are not. Though it could still be possible that the level of tempering is beyond his comprehension.

Temuggzoh: "Impossible! By what sorcery do you resist my master's will!? Could it be...? Your soul already belongs to another!? Yes, that is the only explanation!"
Ifrit: " Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear─thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered."

[kaynide]

The Ifrit quote comes up often as evidence for us not being tempered, but imho it’s not clear.

He simply says we don’t have the taint of another (something) on us. He then explicitly says we are part of a “godless but still blessed” group. He then says the “paragons” warned of our like.

Assuming the paragons are the Ascians, why doesn’t Ifrit recognize THEY are tempered? He doesn’t call them thralls or otherwise tainted. The word “paragons” is used.

Either he isn’t able to detect their tempering or (more likely) the writing hadn’t thought that far ahead. (That is, perhaps at this point likely Hydaelyn and Zodiark were not written as primals)

This leaves a discrepancy.

While I would agree the WoL is probably not tempered, I’m not sure this is the evidence for or against it.

I would also argue that the primals don’t have any actual self-created will. Their will is purely that of those who summoned them. Like, when Ga Bu summoned titan, it was just full of rage, even speaking as Ga Bu would. This would suggest they aren’t all knowing, and probably only know what their summoner does.

That is to say, Ifrit would only know “hey I couldn’t temper you, and you seem to be acting of your own free will...and those paragon guys said people like you would come along..they said you were that godless blessed group”. Not that he could actual detect tempering or not.

[Cleretic]

The Ifrit quote comes up often as evidence for us not being tempered, but imho it’s not clear.

He simply says we don’t have the taint of another (something) on us. He then explicitly says we are part of a “godless but still blessed” group. He then says the “paragons” warned of our like.

Assuming the paragons are the Ascians, why doesn’t Ifrit recognize THEY are tempered? He doesn’t call them thralls or otherwise tainted. The word “paragons” is used.

Either he isn’t able to detect their tempering or (more likely) the writing hadn’t thought that far ahead. (That is, perhaps at this point likely Hydaelyn and Zodiark were not written as primals)

I actually think there's two other possibilities here, because we have to take into account that Ifrit isn't saying any of that for our benefit. He's talking to us, but it's more at us; the dialogue is more between him and the priest, just with the pretense of them both yelling at us. So, two other possibilities arise:
A: It's already something the Amal'jaa and Ifrit know and have hashed out; they don't actually need to talk further about it. Hell, knowing how temper-happy Ifrit is, it's entirely plausible they learned the 'only explanation' they have because they tried to do the 'immediately turn on the shady guys with the weapon they gave you' trick, and it didn't work because the Ascians are already tempered.
Or B: Maybe Ifrit just doesn't care. I may consider Ifrit an expert on tempering, but that doesn't mean he's a deep intellectual who raises hypotheticals, he's clearly more invested in the 'now'. They aren't trying to temper the Ascians at that moment in that scene; they're trying to temper us.

EDIT: But it should be clarified that, as Mikko posted above, Ifrit does rely on his senses to come to the conclusion we aren't tempered. So it's not deduction based on what they were told, it's actually a tangible thing he can detect, which gives it more weight.

[Theodric]

The Ifrit quote comes up often as evidence for us not being tempered, but imho it’s not clear.

Agreed. It really can go either way as needed for the writers to tell the story that they want to tell.

The Heaven's Ward Knights were Tempered but it wasn't immediately apparent and I believe that a recent interview clarified that they were Tempered subtly in an effort to not draw suspicion. Which makes sense, since it aligns with what we've seen elsewhere with the likes of Tiamat. Another example of a character that turned out to be Tempered but had enough self control to make decisions entirely of her own free will.

Which, again, brings us back to the matter of there being various degrees of Tempering. Tiamat worked with Estinien and the Scions to remove her Tempering, which is in itself proof that some of those who are Tempered can indeed operate in a way that allows for decisions to be made that do not necessarily align with what the Primal who Tempered them desired.

I rather suspect that it isn't a coincidence that the same beings displaying the most free will on that front just so happen to have more powerful souls in general. Tiamat and Emet-Selch being the two most prominent example of characters who are Tempered but also shown to go against the grain on many fronts. Now, given that the Warrior of Light himself happens to to have a particularly prominent and powerful soul...

[Cleretic]

I rather suspect that it isn't a coincidence that the same beings displaying the most free will on that front just so happen to have more powerful souls in general. Tiamat and Emet-Selch being the two most prominent example of characters who are Tempered but also shown to go against the grain on many fronts. Now, given that the Warrior of Light himself happens to to have a particularly prominent and powerful soul...

Tiamat gives an actual description of being tempered, remember, because she doesn't know that's what it is. And while I can't quote it verbatim (that's one of the few tempering-focused quotes I don't have immediately recorded and on hand), it's essentially that there is a tangible, persistent voice that she can push out of mind with focus. Which is pretty in line with how Ga Bu described his own experience of being fully tempered, which gives us a general idea of how it feels; a strong voice commanding you, all the time. Sometimes it's strong enough to override everything; other times, either by the tempering being willingly weak or the individual themselves being very strong, it's possible to act independently but impossible to entirely silence the influence. If someone is screaming 'Buy McDonald's' at you all hours of the day, you'll never completely drown out the idea that, hey, you kinda do want a Big Mac.

So, now that we have an idea of what tempering can feel like, we can compare it to the WoL's own experience with Hydaelyn. And to a degree, it almost holds up; do we know that Hydaelyn's messages are appreciably different than, say, Titan's? She's likely nowhere near as forceful, her words are very soft.

But what dissuades me about that angle is the persistence. From Tiamat and Ga Bu's words, the influence of their tempering never stops, so they either have to find refuge from it (in Ga Bu's case) or put every moment of time into drowning it out (in Tiamat's). We don't have that--and in fact, we don't have that to such an extent that we actually had to go contact her directly. Hydaelyn stays silent for expansions at a time, to a degree where that's actually some form of plot point. Meanwhile, Ga Bu was in that state while the primal that tempered him was dead (as is Tiamat if you've done Coils), so tempering is clearly more of a strong passive affliction rather than a weak active connection like the WoL has with Hydaelyn.

And while this isn't exactly strong and decisive evidence, Hydaelyn certainly seems a lot more helpful to her chosen than primals are to their tempered; she's helped everyone with the Blessing of Light we know of at least once, while most tempered are lucky to be horribly mutilated into sea monsters by theirs (R.I.P. Captain Madison). That might be personal demeanor more than anything, though.

So, yeah, I still don't buy it. The writers would have to hint at something this big to not slap us with it out of nowhere, and any 'hint' is at best tenuous, while actual evidence is speaking more strongly against it. EDIT: Hell, it's not even really that useful to compare it to 'Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals', because that ultimately changes very little about our relationship to either of them (and personally I always suspected Zodiark was one anyway) while 'the WoL's been tempered this whole time' would change rather a lot. ...also I'm pretty sure we actually had the 'they're primals' info drop as part of the Shadowbringers leadup, because I remember making jokes about it, so if they were making a pull like that, we'd have heard it by now.

[kaynide]

@Cleretic, a littttle off topic, but you're probably the guy to ask:

Is there any info on SELF tempering? Like Shiva- by all accounts she is the primal itself..but was she ever in any way tempered by her own ideals? I think not, but like I said- you're probably the one who knows.

King Thordan is possibly an easier character to sort out in this..but Shiva.. weird. She was not only a primal, but also had a light crystal/Hydaelyn's blessings. There seemed to be some kind of limit to her ability to either control or become Shiva.



Secondly, and more for anyone... is there evidence that Primals are actual individual entities? That is to say, if group A summoned Ifrit, could another group summon an entirely different Ifrit? (We're kind of seeing that with the Lunar variants)

Or- the Titan we fought originally was obviously the will of the Kobolds, but the Titan we fought when Ga bu's parents were kiilled was a Titan of Ga Bu's will/anger. To me, these are entirely different entities.

If so...(purely theoretically) a more benevolent or even controllable Garuda/Titan/whatever might be possible. She wouldn't carry a grudge as this Garuda is simply not the Garuda we defeated. The new Garuda might not even have any memories of us (Assuming we killed all Ixal present in the first summoning). The fact that a summoner can create Egi (and soon actual full on Garuda/Titan/Ifrit) seems to suggest that these are not actual individuals, but just "will made manafest".. more like a computer program or robot than creature.