The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Veloran]

It comes from the context and inference. We know that Amaurot are isolationist and don't involve themselves in other nations' societies and everything about the Zodiark plan comes across as extremely hashed together under extreme time pressure (the core of Zodiark changed at least once; the high cost of summoning; Zodiark purpose in literally just rewriting reality itself rather than addressing the actual issue; etc). It's not hard at all to come to the conclusion the the Zodiark plan was not in fact worked on for a long time but that Amaurot thought they had high enough ground to not get swept away with the rest when flood waters rose.

But some of that is backwards. The choice about the heart of Zodiark tells us that they had time during the process to deliberate about who it should be and even change their decision afterwards. And while they seemingly couldn't determine a direct cause of the Sound, they had researched it enough to learn about it's effects on both the natural world and the Lifestream, and they even captured a terminus beast to study. Everything we hear from the citizens of Amaurot tells us that it was a slow but unstoppable spreading disaster, and what we see in the phantom city basically spans the time period from the first incident (with the unknown calamity befalling a city across the sea which some citizens argue over) to the time when the world was completely engulfed by it and Amaurot was in it's last days before they too were struck.

For your second point, in what way is cooperating and coordinating with other people "being their keepers"? Do you think those who are in the direct path of catastrophe are just lounging around thinking "Well the planet is literally screaming at me to die, but this is fine," and not trying to make a plan of their own to, if not stop the Final Days, at least save the people who are still alive and help them survive this? You're not someone's keeper for showing up and actually contributing, something that Amaurot clearly wasn't interested and what Sharlayan is actively refusing to do.

We have no idea what people elsewhere were doing or even if Amaurot didn't reach out to anybody else. All we have is one instance at the very outbreak of the phenomena where two random citizens argue about the morality and practicality of helping a city somewhere that had been devastated by some unknown event.

I would argue that when the effects of the Sound are described to the player and the Amaurotine doing so describes it as "wresting from us control of our creation magicks" and "siphoning from our minds every dread impulse", that is telling us something: Either A, Amaurotines were actively going out into the world and trying to stop the calamity themselves, B, other people with creation magic were in contact with Amaurot and described it's effects to them and this Amaurotine considered them as one in the same and in it together, or C, some combination of the two.

Basically I'm saying that the notion Amaurot stood by and did nothing until they themselves were threatened is really not backed up by what we know of the situation.

[kaynide]

If they're just like Zeal, they would know exactly what it was. Queen Zeal had her heart stolen by Lavos, and sought more of his power so that she could live on forever at his side. She sought to wake him. The Zeal citizenry were eminently aware of Lavos, where their powers came from, and refer to Lavos as Lavos-sama. You know, the deific honorific.

I mean, I won't discount the possibility of a Lavos like being, being responsible for the Sound, but I think that the ancient's aether source was simply their larger, denser souls.

If anything, they put a strain on the planet, because their talented sorcerers drew on the power of the Underworld to take on their powerful forms, as alluded to in, "Through His Eyes."


I'd like for the Ancients' downfall to still be of their own making. If by misunderstanding the tax their sorcerers placed on the Lifestream or by a crazed Terminus cult... I want their flaws revealed.

I like this route; I don’t think it will be a 1:1 carbon copy of Chrono Trigger, but I won’t be surprised by it being inspiration for EW.

I expect some big twist; as in, it wouldn’t surprise me if first the ancients created the life stream or gave sentience to the planet itself as a step 1 we don’t know about, prior to Zodiark.

My wild speculation is:
1) Ancients created or woke up a thing which provided an overwhelming source of aether, possibly Hydaelyn itself. As in, the ancients created something to enhance their own creation abilities. It went out of control.
2) Zodiark was essentially meant to reign that in, but took too much aether.
3) Venat used to rework Hydaelyn to “cage” Zodiark.

And that now, Hydaelyn remains weak as long as her power is being spent caging Zodiark. Once Zodiark is destroyed, Hydaelyn will be free to pursue her original directive: creation. Furthermore, with the cure for tempering, it would seem this will become a major point later…especially since our character seems to be tempered by Hydaelyn.

..ok I’ll take off my tinfoil hat now…

[Lauront]

If they're just like Zeal, they would know exactly what it was. Queen Zeal had her heart stolen by Lavos, and sought more of his power so that she could live on forever at his side. She sought to wake him. The Zeal citizenry were eminently aware of Lavos, where their powers came from, and refer to Lavos as Lavos-sama. You know, the deific honorific.

I mean, I won't discount the possibility of a Lavos like being, being responsible for the Sound, but I think that the ancient's aether source was simply their larger, denser souls.

If anything, they put a strain on the planet, because their talented sorcerers drew on the power of the Underworld to take on their powerful forms, as alluded to in, "Through His Eyes."


I'd like for the Ancients' downfall to still be of their own making. If by misunderstanding the tax their sorcerers placed on the Lifestream or by a crazed Terminus cult... I want their flaws revealed.

We only know of one instance of them doing that, and that is Hades, and the wording is such that there were only some rare few with this affinity. If a war between Mhach and Amdapor failed to fully destroy the planet to such a degree, I doubt a few men like Hades doing so is going to result in the utter destruction of the star. Especially amongst a civilisation that by all accounts took observing and watching over the star carefully quite seriously, and in which many possessed the gift of being able to see the flow of aether. Could they write it such a way? Of course, but it'd be rather inconsistent with the short story...

I think it's more plausible that there was a crazed cult behind it (Telophoroi follows an ancient naming schema), as their flaws mostly seem to consist in those of a similar vein to angels (e.g. Lucifer and his jealousy) or the ancient Greek deities, than anything else, and their society was so structured as to mitigate that - so the possibility of some lunatics trying to rebel against it, or indeed existence itself, certainly exists.

As a general remark and not in relation to your comments specifically, quite often I think people run off looking for inklings of dystopia in all directions rather than simply taking it at face value that it was a society suited to their unique attributes and so in some ways, strange to human eyes. While I acknowledge it is entirely possible that the writing may reveal some secret dystopia, I can't say the theme would do much for me. There is enough there already (much as there is with the dragons and other such higher beings) without the need to belabour the point endlessly just to prop up (rhetorically) the existence of the sundered, IMO.

In any case, this is where I think a being such as Lavos (or Jenova etc) might enter the equation, with such a cult as the Telophoroi potentially in service to it.

But some of that is backwards. The choice about the heart of Zodiark tells us that they had time during the process to deliberate about who it should be and even change their decision afterwards. And while they seemingly couldn't determine a direct cause of the Sound, they had researched it enough to learn about it's effects on both the natural world and the Lifestream, and they even captured a terminus beast to study. Everything we hear from the citizens of Amaurot tells us that it was a slow but unstoppable spreading disaster, and what we see in the phantom city basically spans the time period from the first incident (with the unknown calamity befalling a city across the sea which some citizens argue over) to the time when the world was completely engulfed by it and Amaurot was in it's last days before they too were struck.


We have no idea what people elsewhere were doing or even if Amaurot didn't reach out to anybody else. All we have is one instance at the very outbreak of the phenomena where two random citizens argue about the morality and practicality of helping a city somewhere that had been devastated by some unknown event.

I would argue that when the effects of the Sound are described to the player and the Amaurotine doing so describes it as "wresting from us control of our creation magicks" and "siphoning from our minds every dread impulse", that is telling us something: Either A, Amaurotines were actively going out into the world and trying to stop the calamity themselves, B, other people with creation magic were in contact with Amaurot and described it's effects to them and this Amaurotine considered them as one in the same and in it together, or C, some combination of the two.

Basically I'm saying that the notion Amaurot stood by and did nothing until they themselves were threatened is really not backed up by what we know of the situation.

Well said. I think the way Amaurot dealt with the situation was more along the lines of the Amaurotine arguing for them to take a hold of the situation, whereas Sharlayan's philosophy is more like that of the Amaurotine firebrand. Like you say, intervening in each and every situation is also not always a good idea, and also Sharlayan may be keeping its cards close to its chest - they quite literally were with AST.

[MellowMink]

From what Emet-Selch says, it was an intentional part of Hydaelyn's construction and powerset; she divides, that is the point.

HOWEVER! We need to remember that Emet-Selch is a big fat liar about many things, and is actually most frequently incorrect about Hydaelyn. Which is fair enough--he literally was not there for any part of Hydaelyn's formulation, so he doesn't know anything about the intentions, only the results--but it means that we can't really trust him one bit on this.

Emet-Selch also literally tells us that he and many of the other Ascians were tempered by Zodiark, so he's mentally incapable of not being biased to some extent; lots of people seem to forget that.

Of course, we could have been unknowingly tempered (not merely protected) by Hydaelyn at some point but in a more subtle manner, which would be pretty spooky.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Emet-Selch also literally tells us that he and many of the other Ascians were tempered by Zodiark, so he's mentally incapable of not being biased to some extent; lots of people seem to forget that.

Of course, we could have been unknowingly tempered (not merely protected) by Hydaelyn at some point but in a more subtle manner, which would be pretty spooky.

Why would hydaelyn be subtle but not zodiark? Also i kind of question Zodiark’s tempering and how strong it is. We know based on the short story that even despite being tempered, the convocation was still at odds with each other and disagreeing regarding some topics.

[Yuella]

I just played 3.2 with my alt. I don't think Minfilia / Hydaelyn lied.

She said "Light and Darkness were one but Darkness wanted more power, so I sundered the world". Darkness here does not refer to Zodiark but the Sound. "Zodiark wanted to be whole so the Ascians labored for the rejoinings". Zodiark and Darkness are two different beings.

The first statement, "Light and Darkness were one", in fact implies that Zodiark is Light or at least works for Light to counter Darkness in this case. So both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are light. Zodiark balanced the Darkness/Sound. That's why Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, cares so much about balance. Too much Darkness, Zodiark brings light. Too much Light, Zodiark brings Darkness. The Sound is a being of Darkness so Zodiark brings Light in this case. The problem was the Ancients wanted to sacrifice new lives to bring back their friends, threatening to break Darkness free of Zodiark so Hydaelyn sundered the star to prevent this. The Ascians thought Hydaelyn was working against Zodiark but they were wrong. Hydaelyn was working against Darkness and sundering Zodiark was just a mean to an end.

Notice that at the end of 5.55, Venat says "Darkness is coming" not "Zodiark is coming".

[Cleretic]

Of course, we could have been unknowingly tempered (not merely protected) by Hydaelyn at some point but in a more subtle manner, which would be pretty spooky.

The notion that we're tempered was debunked literally, like, three sentences after it was ever suggested. It is an argument with zero grounding beyond 'wouldn't it be neat if'*.

I made a video that explicitly talks about this (as well as other details about the Blessing of Light), but in short: Ifrit, the second most temper-happy primal we've ever met (which i would say definitely qualifies him as a subject matter expert in a story like this), specifically shoots down the Amal'jaa priest's allegation that we're tempered--which is something with exceptional weight, given how rare it is that primals go against their summoners. And for the record, we already had the Blessing of Light and an awakened Echo at this point, because we already had a crystal of light. But if you consider Ifrit directly saying this is wrong to be an inapplicable source, it then has to be approached as an angle of 'how would the writers hint at this and what opportunities would they be taking'. And there's just no hints, despite ample potential setup: Emet-Selch was the guy that outright says Hydaelyn's a primal and that Zodiark tempered him, and he wouldn't have passed up an opportunity to shake our faith; Elidibus also has the subject of tempering come up around him and would have had every reason to announce it to save face; Fandaniel is wielding tempering as a weapon and had a perfect chance to screw with us.

On the other side of the morality scale, Y'shtola, Urianger, and G'raha Tia are all qualified experts in exactly these fields, and are all equipped with the knowledge that Hydaelyn is a primal and now knowledge of what the symptoms of tempering actually are. To a lesser but still significant extent, we also have Alisaie not just studying how to cure tempering, but specifically having the first cases be focused on an overabundance of light aether, which hypothetical Hydaelyn tempering would be. And not a single one of them says anything about this possibility, not even in 5.55 when every single one of them is in the same room directly discussing the WoL's relationship with Hydaelyn.

All of those characters on both sides of the story are set up as 'smart people whose beliefs and hypotheses should be considered in some way trustworthy and accurate', and yet none of them have even so much as hinted at the possibility that Hydaelyn has tempered us. Almost like the thing Ifrit said way back in 2.0 was accurate. And frankly, if you can't trust 'a direct statement denying this and a refusal to acknowledge the subject by every form of subject matter expert the game's had', I'm not actually sure how the game could tell you this isn't true. A twist like that needs some seeds sown before the sudden payoff, and they just don't exist.

*And incidentally, no, it wouldn't really be neat or spooky. Outside of the shock value, it either does nothing or hollows out the entire experience of the game thus far. And neither of those are fun or worth it.

Apologies for coming off a bit strong here, but as an enormous lorehound, this is a real bugbear of mine. It's not just a theory with no evidence, it's a theory with negative evidence, because it was specifically shut down.

[Theodric]

I'm reminded of a certain thread here a while back where someone proposed, before Shadowbringers was even announced, that Hydaelyn could perhaps be a Primal and it was shot down hard by some of the regular posters here.

It was presented as being impossible. It was presented that Hydaelyn couldn't be anything other than a benevolent mother goddess.

I don't personally think that it can be explicitly ruled out that the Warrior of Light is, in fact, not Tempered by Hydaelyn. Especially now that the rules of Tempering have changed considerably over the years as new lore has come to be revealed. Even if we're being generous, there's been some rather drastic retcons in order to make certain things fit.

I'd also note, the aversion to Hydaelyn having Tempered the Warrior of Light is a completely subjective element. I wouldn't be bothered by it, personally - and I'm sure many others would feel the same way.

I was rather lukewarm at first on the idea of Garlemald being yet another Ascian creation simply because I figured it'd be more interesting if it were allowed to be its own thing entirely separate from the Ascian storyline. I figured that it robbed the agency from the Garleans to make their own decisions and endure the consequences that came with them. Yet it is what it is and it worked in regards to pushing many of the existing major story arcs to their approaching conclusion.

Hydaelyn may or may not have Tempered the Warrior of Light but if it's what the writers want to do then it's what they're going to do.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why some people may feel strongly about the matter but as a pretty major lore enthusiast myself, I can't help but look at the inclusion of the likes of the Nier Automata crossover raid and note that the game is taking a very different approach to storytelling than it used to. A lot of people - myself included - like to look back at lore established during the days of 1.0 and 2.0 but so much of it has been changed over time as new story beats have been explored that I think it's wise to keep an open mind on many fronts.

[Vyrerus]

it's a theory with negative evidence, because it was specifically shut down.

It actually doesn't have any negative evidence though. Ifrit's line is in regards to the Echo. Which he is right about, but he may just not be able to perceive Hydaelyn's tempering (consider that most of the world doesn't know that Hydaelyn is just a primal). It's also worth noting that Ifrit telling his priest how it is isn't all that drastic a thing, because the priest still worships Ifrit as god. The Primals give commands out to their followers and the followers obey often. They're not completely slaves to their summoner's will. Not really sure where you've got that idea from, exactly.

As for why other villains or our allies haven't given many big hints or dropped the bomb yet... I imagine if the WoL being tempered is a thing, it's something that's going to be a minor inconvenience at worst, which will be overhyped by the ally cast. The villains I imagine don't care so much, because it doesn't change much for their conflict with us.

But anyway, I imagine the Scions wouldn't want to give voice to the possibility because it'd be too painful a reality for them to realize. Imagine the greatest hero you know, the person you respect above all others... is that way through primal compulsion, at least partially. Would they have been the hero they are now without the compulsion? Have we been accepting a necessary evil as yet another burden? In this manner you could say that Y'shtola asking about your relationship with Hydaelyn as a seed or hint to start thinking about whether you are/were Tempered to Hydaelyn. You can also take the cave painting scene that shows Hydaelyn colored individuals beneath her, possibly representing her followers as tempered as a hint too.

Also other things in this post that I'm going to nitpick... The first cases of actual Tempering that were cured were Earth aspected aether(still inclined towards stasis but whatever). The light aspected Sineater turning sickness was the proving ground because it was similar to Tempering. It wasn't Tempering. And the symptoms to Tempering vary depending on the Tempered individuals length of being tempered, how strong their soul is, what elemental aspect it's inclined towards, what race they are(Sylphs turned purple, yo), and who tempered them. I don't think we actually have any bonafide know it alls, though our Scion Accomplices are still the authorities in the field.

All I'm really getting at though, is that it could still go either way. There's enough wiggle room if they want to pull it off. Won't make or break the story for me, and I doubt it'd be a surprise to many people if it were the case. I'm sure if they did reveal the WoL to be Tempered, it would merely be for making the Scions lament how much of a burden we face in holding the world on our shoulders, and how they'll have to rectify that someday in someway, somehow. uwu boohoo

[kaynide]

Re:Tempering

It might also be a problem if the source of a lot of our power (eg the Echo) was this tempering. To untemper the WoL would free us, but at what cost? Would we no longer be Superman? Can the world/Scions afford that loss?

If this is a case of tempering, I see it more of a Bioshock “Could you kindly” kind of reveal.. because up until now the WoL has not actual had any free will at all regarding the events of the main story with exception of what… the job you play and free company you join?

Every choice we have made has had no impact on the story at large..and while out of game that’s just because it’s an mmo and easier to write, it could easily become a plot twist where the WoL could not refuse requests for help.