The Problems With Ninja In Endwalker

[Stella_Khutga]

Huraijin is effectively useless in all fights currently in the game right now. We still Huton prepull and keep Huton up with Armour Crush.

Huraijin is a weaker GCD than Spinning Edge that, if we had the button right now, would only be used to recover Huton after death without spending a mudra charge. However, the reduction in duration of Huton from 70s to 60s means Huraijin has a use in fights with long cutscene-style downtime segements like E1S, E8S and TEA: namely, giving us Huton back without spending a mudra charge. A button that exists only to help us recover from death easier doesn't need to exist when, ideally, you just don't die in the first place.

Except that you can carry Huton through all 3 of those given examples if the timer is a maximum of 70s instead of 60s. So the button feels like it was added for no real reason other than to fix a problem (dropping Huton through cutscenes) that only exists because of a change they made (Huton duration decreased by 10s).

Regarding Shukuchi and Raiju: You will not be able to dash into an AoE, Shukuchi out, then dash back into the boss with the second Raiju to keep your rotation going if the first AoE just snapshots while you're in there and kills you outright. And even if it does work, we should not need to resort to something as convoluted as that just to stay safe while keeping uptime, when they could just as easily allow us to keep Raiju if we use other weaponskills (since we can currently only use it after Raiton or we lose the procs) or change them to oGCDs. If the design intends us to Gapclose Shukuchi Gapclose, then the design is bad and should be changed.

[Seraphor]

Not exactly a melee equivalent of Triplecast. A melee-equivalent of triplecast equivalent would be just any instant-cast weaponskill in melee range. Gap closers specifically direct you towards one direction and becomes much less flexible if it forces a gapcloser in your rotation. Think about RDM. The difference is that RDM actually benefits from this since they have a melee combo and a disengage to go back into range. They have the potential to delay their melee combo because they can hold off on spending their black and white mana for a long time, especially with the new Endwalker changes, so it's not a real problem if they have to enter melee range. Ninja is pretty much the opposite. They have ranged attacks that enable them to stay within a range briefly before going back in (with Shukuchi). However, having a gap closer as part of their ranged rotation locks their ranged mobility by keeping them within melee range at all times. This creates an issue for small disengages if the AoE is big and you need a lot more time to run out of the AoE beyond just a single Raiton, but not beyond 2 Raitons.

Imagine now if RDM was doing their melee rotation, but on your 2nd melee combo skill, displacement's effect changes and and you lose a big damage increase if you don't use it. However, displacement prevents you from using your final melee combo skill immediately by forcing you to run back to the boss to hit it will delay one to two GCDs - in other words, a downgrade to the flexibility in the skill. What does that mean? You have to save corps-a-corps specifically to counter Displacement. That also means corps-a-corps is no longer as flexible as a gapcloser tool because it's being a 'forced' gapcloser. That's basically what people believe fleeting raiju will become in terms of flexibility.

"Not exactly a melee equivalent of Triplecast. A melee-equivalent of triplecast equivalent would be just any instant-cast weaponskill in melee range."
You just described every single weaponskill ever.

Melee don't have to worry about movement, they have to worry about distance. Distance is the melee equivalent to a casters movement, therefore this is the equivalent of Triplecast.

[Pyitoechito]

Huraijin is just a death recovery skill so a mudra doesn't have to be wasted on Huton after reviving. It won't help if one never dies or drops Huton (due to extended downtime...? Just recast Huton), but it will be a net buff when recovering from death and for newer or less skilled NINs (who might accidentally drop Huton from time to time). Imagine dying during EX or Savage prog and being able to get up and reapply Huton with a 200 potency GCD instead of wasting more time and a mudra casting Huton. Or hey, you were thinking about pretty clouds and forgot to cast Huton/Hide before the tank rushes in and pulls the boss without a countdown. I wonder if it would be a better option to open with Hurajin in that situation?

As for Forked/Fleeting Raiju, can someone find some footage or documentation from the media tour that objectively shows "Forked Raiju Ready" is lost when using any other weaponskill after Raiton? I can't seem to find anything that proves it either way, so I would like some evidence to confirm that since the 30s buff duration makes it seem like it would last longer. Not interested in Fleeting Raiju here since it would make sense for hit two of the 1-2 Raiju combo to drop if another WS is used.

If it is the case that Forked Raiju is lost when using any WS after Raiton, then that's something SE probably needs to fix sooner rather than later. Though the only WS I can think of being used if forced to disengage is Throwing Dagger (or mudras).

Edit: I found the part in MrHappy's video showing that Raiju does drop on any other WS (Throwing Dagger untested). So it is confirmed.

[Seraphor]

Huraijin is just a death recovery skill so a mudra doesn't have to be wasted on Huton after reviving. It won't help if one never dies or drops Huton (due to extended downtime...? Just recast Huton), but it will be a net buff when recovering from death and for newer or less skilled NINs (who might accidentally drop Huton from time to time). Imagine dying during EX or Savage prog and being able to get up and reapply Huton with a 200 potency GCD instead of wasting more time and a mudra casting Huton. Or hey, you were thinking about pretty clouds and forgot to cast Huton/Hide before the tank rushes in and pulls the boss without a countdown. I wonder if it would be a better option to open with Hurajin in that situation?

As for Forked/Fleeting Raiju, can someone find some footage or documentation from the media tour that objectively shows "Forked Raiju Ready" is lost when using any other weaponskill after Raiton? I can't seem to find anything that proves it either way, so I would like some evidence to confirm that since the 30s buff duration makes it seem like it would last longer. Not interested in Fleeting Raiju here since it would make sense for hit two of the 1-2 Raiju combo to drop if another WS is used.

If it is the case that Forked Raiju is lost when using any WS after Raiton, then that's something SE probably needs to fix sooner rather than later. Though the only WS I can think of being used if forced to disengage is Throwing Dagger (or mudras).

The thing is, with how often you're using Raiton, you really don't need to worry about this.
It's a bonus movement tool, that adequately fills in for your main WS combo.
Raiton, and then IF you need to close the gap, you can Forked + Fleeting. If you don't, carry on with your WS combo for virtually the same potency.
You're not really losing out on anything if you don't need to use it, and if you're in melee range and ABLE to use a WS, then you don't need it. If you're outside of melee range and do need to use it, then as a Ninja, you're already planning to use a Raiton anyway.

[Pyitoechito]

The thing is, with how often you're using Raiton, you really don't need to worry about this.
It's a bonus movement tool, that adequately fills in for your main WS combo.
Raiton, and then IF you need to close the gap, you can Forked + Fleeting. If you don't, carry on with your WS combo for virtually the same potency.
You're not really losing out on anything if you don't need to use it, and if you're in melee range and ABLE to use a WS, then you don't need it. If you're outside of melee range and do need to use it, then as a Ninja, you're already planning to use a Raiton anyway.

This doesn't sound right. Forked+Fleeting Raiju is higher total potency than any 2 GCDs from the standard 1-2-3 combo. There's clearly potency lost if Raiju is skipped. It would be like telling someone to just always use Armor Crush instead of Aeolian Edge because they're "virtually the same potency."

[KageTokage]

I feel like both NIN and DRG need considerably better personal survival cooldowns after seeing the ridiculous RPR one (Though the latter moreso due to it also being a DPS cooldown).

The ones on SAM and MNK already mitigate considerably more damage over the course of a fight, so the only real value NIN's has is that the mitigation is high enough to be more likely to save you in a panic situation where you can tell your HP isn't high enough to survive a mechanic...but that's something that shouldn't be happening in the first place.

[Seraphor]

This doesn't sound right. Forked+Fleeting Raiju is higher total potency than any 2 GCDs from the standard 1-2-3 combo. There's clearly potency lost if Raiju is skipped. It would be like telling someone to just always use Armor Crush instead of Aeolian Edge because they're "virtually the same potency."

There are traits that increase the potency of the 1-2-3 weaponskills post level 80.

The difference in potency between Forked-Fleeting and 2-3 will be in double digits.
Plus Aeolian Edge will give 15 Ninki while Forked and Fleeting give 5.

[Pyitoechito]

There are traits that increase the potency of the 1-2-3 weaponskills post level 80.

The difference in potency between Forked-Fleeting and 2-3 will be in double digits.
Plus Aeolian Edge will give 15 Ninki while Forked and Fleeting give 5.

MrHappy's video shows that both Raiju give 5 Kenki each (and Phantom Kamaitachi gives 10 total under Bunshin), even though the current tooltips say otherwise.

Let's math it out. For the sake of argument let's say that Armor Crush is never used and we live in a hypothetical world where we only use Aeolian Edge of max potency (and don't lose Huton). For every Raiju combo we use during the fight, we drop 2 regular GCDs off the end. So if we use 3 Raiju combos, that's 1-2-3-1-2-3 or two of each weaponskill.

3 Raiju combos total potency: 2550; total Kenki: 30
2 regular combos total potency: 1960; total Kenki: 50; potency + 1 Bhava: 2260

Raijus win by 590 potency, but lose 20 Kenki. It would be difficult to count the Bhava against the Raijus because the Kenji difference was only 20 but if we give the regular combo one Bhava it still loses by 290 potency.

Also, Raijin combo vs. 2-3 regular combo is 100 potency. That's still in the triple digits (albeit 10 Kenki in the 2-3's favor).

Edit: We could extend it so both sides use Bhavas with no leftover Kenki:

15 Raiju combos total potency: 12,750; total Kenki: 150; Total + Bhavas: 13,650
10 regular combos total potency 9,800; total Kenki: 250; Total + Bhavas: 11,300

Total difference in potency: 2350 potency in Raiju's favor.

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The real issue is actually Phantom Kamaitachi. If Raiton is used during Bunshin with only 1-2 charges left and Phantom Kamaitachi still hasn't been used, then the Phantom has to be sacrificed for Raiju. I can definitely see this as being problematic down the road.

[Noraiga]

We need the final tooltip then, to tell if it'll be a big damage lose or not and decide about whether Raiju should be used or no : (
Less than a month to wait !

[CynthiaStar]

This all I agree with.

Huraijin is a nearly completely useless bandaid skill given to us after reducing huton by 60s. Its literal only uses are if you die or for those long cutscenes that previous you could keep huton up for.

Phantom Kamaitachi is weirdly low in potency in the media tour to the point where you're only going to use it if that bunshin lands outside of Trick Attack or you aren't on Aeolian Edge of your combo when you use Bunshin inside Trick Attack.

Raiju is a seriously limiting skill and will completely ruin the feel of Ninja, bringing it to be even more limiting than Dragoons jumps. Having Gap closing GCDs is a bad idea to begin with but having two in a row that can be lost entirely if we don't use them immediately and lose damage as a result is actually awful. Ninja is going to be horribly limited in movement especially during the opener where we have to fit in 6 gap closers and TenChiJin.

It is just not a good thing, 6.0 is looking to be another 5.0 for Ninja. Though instead of being painful to play and low dps no matter how you play it will just be painful to play and low dps because we won't be able to use our high damage gap closers all the time and that will cause ninja to underperfom on fights that require a lot of max melee movement.