Are you the loud minority? (Healer feedback)

[MaxCarnage]

Ok cool, let's wave off my Coil experience (Which in turn was Solitude's experience in Coil, aka the people that made the most in-depth guides and analysis by far back then if that adds any credibility to my claims), what about the cold hard math behind my first corrections which were Aero and Thunder. Waving these corrections off as Anecdotal is just a weak response.

Look, I can't speak from personal experience about Coils. I never did them. You had the same strategy as the guide. Cool. Doesn't mean it was the only possible way to play.

No one is claiming that Aero + Thunder being a DPS gain is anecdotal. In fact...

I wouldn’t call them corrections necessarily as your post is mostly anecdotal.

So already, they didn't say all you said was based on personal experience. They said most.

Idk what skills i took beyond sure cast and swift cast, but i could tell you, thunder sure wasn’t one of them.

So sure, Aero 1 and Thunder is a DPS gain, but clearly not every WHM that did Coils during progression had Thunder selected as a cross-class skill. Some deemed it to be less important than other skills they could have taken.

Your coil experience is different from mine. I also went through progressive coil before we were over powered or coil was nerfed.

This is from the perspective of someone who started to prog Coil in Darklight and Vanya

I also did coils in dark light gears.

I don't see why it matters the exact date they beat it. They said that, like you, they did progression and in the same gear as you. So whether you beat it first or they beat it first, honestly doesn't matter. They don't seem to be arguing about whether your way was most effective or not. They're saying that your experience is your experience, not theirs. They did it different. And you both beat it. So there isn't only 1 right answer. To see who beat it first is just a pointless attempt at flexing.

i mean i could go on about the plethora of alternatives to surviving. Shields. Lucky with a crit Aldo. Tank limit breaks. The stars didn’t have to align

Whether something was a "necessity" or not, who knows. But I'm just saying, if someone could beat the same thing you did using a different method, doesn't seem much like a "necessity" to me.

And truth be told, as a bystander to this conversation, it seems more like you're looking for a fight than a debate. Don't take this the wrong way, but you're coming off very.... for lack of a better phrase, high and mighty. Like you're looking down on others for having a different method. To me, it reads as "well, I'll have you know that I beat it at this time, I was one of the first to beat it, and my method is the same method that the people who wrote the guide used, so it must be the only correct way". Whether it was the intent or not, that is definitely how it came across to me. Take that how you will.

And I'm saying this as myself; Aero puts all your GCD skills on cooldown. So yes, keeping a DoT up is a DPS gain over the entire course of the DoT being up, no one is arguing that. But choosing to cast Aero 1 and Aero 2 over Aero 2 and Stone 2 seems like a drop in DPS as you took that GCD time you could have used for a Stone 2, and continue to lose GCD time every time you reapply.

[Sebazy]

Look, I can't speak from personal experience about Coils. I never did them. You had the same strategy as the guide. Cool. Doesn't mean it was the only possible way to play.

Nono, I was a part of the FC that wrote the guides. Pls =(

I don't see why it matters the exact date they beat it. They said that, like you, they did progression and in the same gear as you.

It matters because the gear defines how much you could get away with. You missed the part where they also had tome gear in your quote FYI. I'm saying that in dark light and Vanya/crafted, you required Stoneskin as part of your mitigation strategy alongside adlo, a virus chain and a timed cure II that needed to land between death sentence hitting and the game client registering the infirmity debuff. With this gear you could afford to miss one of these things with minimal risk. Miss 2 and you were risking a one shot with the odds getting rather unfavourable beyond dive-bombs. This was simply how early T5 prog was. Once it was farm content and tanks had more HP, this sort of optimisation just wasn't required. Thus the date is relevant to the discussion. It's not a flex.

Feel free to go check my logs, they are pretty awful in Savage, especially relative to the company I keep. As hardcore as I used to be, I'm the last person to have any right to flex and brag about things like this

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're coming off very.... for lack of a better phrase, high and mighty. Like you're looking down on others for having a different method. To me, it reads as "well, I'll have you know that I beat it at this time, I was one of the first to beat it, and my method is the same method that the people who wrote the guide used, so it must be the only correct way". Whether it was the intent or not, that is definitely how it came across to me. Take that how you will.

I poured weeks into progressing coil. I took time off work. I spent evenings post raid digging through logs, scanning replays, uploading PoVs and discussing with the rest of the FC healing team. Even when I wasn't inside participating, I was sat outside in wineport watching our healer PoV streams so I could help with instant backseat analysis. All this to ensure that our FC killed Twintania as quickly as possible. I'm not hiding anything, my clear date is plain to see for all even if it does bug me, as are my logs. My PoVs would still be about if Hitbox was still a thing too.

But I've got to sit here and be told I'm wrong by a sprout and someone who can't back up there claims with a shred of evidence. I'm the one making anecdotal claims? Really?

And I'm saying this as myself; Aero puts all your GCD skills on cooldown. So yes, keeping a DoT up is a DPS gain over the entire course of the DoT being up, no one is arguing that. But choosing to cast Aero 1 and Aero 2 over Aero 2 and Stone 2 seems like a drop in DPS as you took that GCD time you could have used for a Stone 2, and continue to lose GCD time every time you reapply.

You're thinking about this the wrong way

Aero's dot did a total of 150 potency across 18 seconds with an additional upfront hit of 50 potency for a total of 200 potency for 1 GCD (and an instant that could be used on the move at that).

Aero II's dot has a total of 160 potency across 12 seconds with the same additional upfront hit of 50 potency for a total of 210 potency for 1 GCD cast. Unlike Aero, it did have a cast time.

At the time, Stone II was 170 potency for the same GCD with the caveat that it was entirely front loaded.

Simply put, if you were confident the target would stay alive for at least 15 seconds, Aero was a DPS gain over just throwing another Stone II. If it died 12 seconds or sooner, it was a loss. It was also marginally cheaper to cast vs Stone II which was a pretty big factor not only in Coil, but also in fights such as Titan HM where WHM would often be struggling for MP if the DPS wasn't great. One thing I can confidently add, is that multi dotting everything in dungeons was the key to huge damage numbers as a healer back in 2.x to 3.x.

[MaxCarnage]

But I've got to sit here and be told I'm wrong by a sprout and someone who can't back up there claims with a shred of evidence. I'm the one making anecdotal claims? Really?

I understand that prog clearing new raids is an accomplishment and I'm not trying to diminish that. I don't know when they cleared. I don't know the situation. I can't speak on that. I just feel like this is an unnecessary pissing contest. And in this response, from how it comes off, it looks like you're talking down on them for responding on a lower level account. I can't speak for them, but I know on my end, I don't post on my main. I'm all 80s on my main. I post on an alt because people, like you have, track others down to find out about them. See their credibility. And attack them on it. Sometimes even going as far as to track them down in game. Personally, I like my privacy.

So maybe, Kolaina is doing the same thing. And they have a right to privacy. Just as I do, and just as you do. How much someone feels like disclosing is up to them. And if someone says they prog cleared Coils, then I'll take their word for it, low level account or not. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about it because they said their method of progression was different than yours. /shrug

People are allowed to disagree with you. Like I said, even if you wrote a guide, doesn't mean that's the only way it could have possibly been done. And no one needs to justify their methods to you, tbh.

[Sebazy]

People are allowed to disagree with you. Like I said, even if you wrote a guide, doesn't mean that's the only way it could have possibly been done. And no one needs to justify their methods to you, tbh.

Then riddle me this:

What magical means did they have to stop Twintania from stomping their tanks when ours were getting curb stomped if we goofed?

The answer is gear

I've backed up the majority of my comments with facts, math and sound reasoning. If you want to go believe your buddy on their anon word alone. So be it. It's pretty obvious I could pull a log and pov recording out and you still wouldn't accept it at this point. /shrug.

[Sebazy]

So sure, Aero 1 and Thunder is a DPS gain, but clearly not every WHM that did Coils during progression had Thunder selected as a cross-class skill.

Let's clarify here:

Idk what skills i took beyond sure cast and swift cast, but i could tell you, thunder sure wasn’t one of them.

In 2.0 WHM could take 5 abilities from the following:

Ruin - Useless
Physic - Not worth taking unless you wanted a different casting animation for whatever reason.
Virus - Mandatory #1
Eye for an Eye - Mandatory #2
Surecast - Anti interupt, this was very niche for specific situations back then. #3
Swiftcast - Mandatory #4
Thunder - 210 potency over 18 seconds with 30 potency upfront for a total of 240 potency. This dot had better GCD efficiency than even Aero II. Mandatory #5

There was only one reason not to have Thunder loaded. And that was patch 2.1.

I think I've covered all the bases? I'll stop derailing the thread with that =(

[Kolaina]

rawr(

Sigh. My apologies i ignored you. I don’t visit this side of the forums often, nor click on new posts frequently. I didn’t find this thread engaging enough to recall it existed.
Anyways. Let go of coil. Seems you had a moment of glory and you can’t let it go. You’re living in the past. Just an fyi, not everyone used a guide to clear it. Idc that you or your fc wrote A guide. Not everyone used one to clear. The completion of coil didn’t depend on you and your clique to complete it first so you could show everyone how.
I’m not sure when i beat coil. I don’t have it marked on my calendar. Forgive me for not having the foresight to deliver such a thing on your demand. But i was in darklight. Was probably after you. But wouldn’t be too long after. Point of it is what? How geared i was? What i could get away with? Did you not get drops on the way to turn 5?
You have so much hostility and this demanding need to try and flex over someone who doesn’t 100% agree with you. ‘Hey everyone, Sebazy knows the only way to do the things’. Ridiculous notion. While there exists optimal rotations and party builds. Not every button hit, step by step, needs to be the same. Does that fly over your head?
What are you trying to prove? You beat coil. Congrats. If you were one the first, gratis again. But your need to flex that and attempt to fight over a minor difference of opinion and approach, get over it. Get over yourself.
Coil is in the past. Your glory you are clutching onto is nearly 8 years old. The game has changed. The player base has changed. I don’t even know at this point what you are arguing about. All i read is “i did coils. I know everything. My way was the only way” did i miss something? Not sure what exactly I’m supposed to respond to beyond your emotional tirade.

[Sebazy]

<snip>

I apologise if you find me correcting some of your points offensive. Duly noted.

Ps as an edit:

Anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Consider trying to counter with facts or research of your own rather than decrying my experience as well as the numbers the game client itself provides right there in tooltips. Calling me hostile after that is a little bit cheeky no?

[AFuzzyMu11in]

Let's clarify here:



In 2.0 WHM could take 5 abilities from the following:

Ruin - Useless
Physic - Not worth taking unless you wanted a different casting animation for whatever reason.
Virus - Mandatory #1
Eye for an Eye - Mandatory #2
Surecast - Anti interupt, this was very niche for specific situations back then. #3
Swiftcast - Mandatory #4
Thunder - 210 potency over 18 seconds with 30 potency upfront for a total of 240 potency. This dot had better GCD efficiency than even Aero II. Mandatory #5

There was only one reason not to have Thunder loaded. And that was patch 2.1.

I think I've covered all the bases? I'll stop derailing the thread with that =(

God that was a nightmare, imagine having basically 4 dps abilities along with stone, I now remember why I leveled healer to 12 and just quit it to play a dps. If I'm gonna be forced to use lots of buttons to dps, then you bet your sweet but I'm going to be doing tons of damage aka dps, why put that much effort in for less reward glad they got rid of virus, e4e, thunder.